What to ask a brewery about their recipe

I'm going to stop by a local brewery and see if I can get any recipe hints on a beer that they brew (which is one of my favorites). They've been friendly in the past when I spoke to the brewers.

The particular beer is a highish gravity chocolate stout with a lot of chocolate character. I suspect they're using cocoa nibs.

I'm still new to this, so I'm not sure what I should ask. Also, I'm not going to brew hundreds of gallons at a time like they do, so I'll need some way of scaling it down to a 5 gallon recipe. I'm also probably going to try to come up with an extract recipe first.

I'm thinking of asking:

Cocoa nibs? How much (ratio?)
What type of yeast?
What type of hops (ratio?), what IBU target?
What kind of grains? How much?
OG/FG?
Ferment temp?

I'm sure I'm forgetting something. Any help on the best way to go about this would be, um, helpful.

Thanks

Have you done any research yourself. sometimes the info is already on their webpage. i have always taken that information, come up with my recipe for it, then email and ask if you are close. 9 times out of 10 they will either give you the recipe minus the yeast, or further guide you. you aren't a threat to them and most of them started out as homebrewers.

"Hey, I'm a homebrewer and I love your ______ beer! I'd like to make something similar. Here's my first stab at a recipe, what should I change?"

That's what I'd ask. If they're responsive (which most are), then your list looks great.

Edit: +1 for doing your homework (post above)

Ask when they are brewing that beer. Often times you can get them to pull off their yeast for you to take homr just bring in a quart size canning jar with lid that is sanitized.

Also, just be nice and brown nose a bit. Most brewers are happy to give you pointers. Remember though, even if they give you the exact recipe it doesn't scale perfectly. So you'll have to play with things a bit.

When I was up in Alaska at the Midnight Sun brewery, the folks there were more than happy to talk "the talk" with a fellow brewer and fan. They were more than willing to share recipes, yeast, etc.

Do your homework, and let them know you're a fan. It'll be hard for them not to be flattered.

last year i asked my local brewery to help me clone one of their beers and they did help me with the grain bill and gave me liters of yeast slurry to boot. last week that beer got a 2nd place ribbon in the world cup of beer held here in oakland. when i contacted the brewery about my win they asked if they could put a picture of the ribbon on their facebook page and twitter account which was very nice of them. just by coincidence they recently started bottling that particular beer which had previously been a seasonal on tap only beer. the brewery is Drakes Brewery in san leandro ca and the beer is their Alpha Session Ale.

eastoak said:

last year i asked my local brewery to help me clone one of their beers and they did help me with the grain bill and gave me liters of yeast slurry to boot. last week that beer got a 2nd place ribbon in the world cup of beer held here in oakland. when i contacted the brewery about my win they asked if they could put a picture of the ribbon on their facebook page and twitter account which was very nice of them. just by coincidence they recently started bottling that particular beer which had previously been a seasonal on tap only beer. the brewery is Drakes Brewery in san leandro ca and the beer is their Alpha Session Ale.

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Congrats, it is always nice to do well and it is also nice to have a brewery help out.

I agree you should always check out the website first. Some breweries are very open about the info and may be less helpful to you if you didn't bother to do your homework first.

I've gotten good results by asking a specific question about a beer and depending on how they answer to inquire deeper and see if they will turn over the recipe. Some breweries will start off telling you the recipe. Some may be unwilling to even answer a specific question. Always thank them for their time and whatever they provide, even if it's nothing.

As stated above, it depends on the brewery, but some can be very helpful if you just ask. I got really lucky a while back asking the guys at Ska for some tips on brewing a True Blonde Ale clone; they actually responded with the whole grain bill and some good hints about the hop schedule!

Good luck on getting that recipe! I was thinking about trying to contact killians for my friends and family who drink mainly that. But I forgot and got lazy lol

Their web page didn't have any details on their beers (from a homebrewjng prospective). I did email them and a fellow who turned out to be the president of the business emailed me back with a bunch of good tips on the recipe.

Still going to stop by there today, have a beer, and see what else I can learn.

Be careful. I know with some of the breweries here in Ohio they guard their recipe's like it was made of gold. They DO NOT want you to clone it. They want you to buy theirs. Sure they may give you some hints. But, I've heard many a story that some places send you on a wild goose chase and or send you in the wrong direction to say the least.

eastoak said:

last year i asked my local brewery to help me clone one of their beers and they did help me with the grain bill and gave me liters of yeast slurry to boot. last week that beer got a 2nd place ribbon in the world cup of beer held here in oakland. when i contacted the brewery about my win they asked if they could put a picture of the ribbon on their facebook page and twitter account which was very nice of them. just by coincidence they recently started bottling that particular beer which had previously been a seasonal on tap only beer. the brewery is Drakes Brewery in san leandro ca and the beer is their Alpha Session Ale.

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Hey eastoak - I was searching for a recipe for Drake's Alpha Session ale and I came across your response to another HBT member. I've taken a look at the Drake's website but if your interested in sharing the recipe you came up with, I'd really like to try it out.

I had been looking for a lower alcohol alternative with good hop presence and about a month ago I found Drake's Alpha on tap at a local pub. I'm hooked, this is a great beer - and under 4% no less! Look out lawn mower, here I come

LarryC said:

Hey eastoak - I was searching for a recipe for Drake's Alpha Session ale and I came across your response to another HBT member. I've taken a look at the Drake's website but if your interested in sharing the recipe you came up with, I'd really like to try it out.

I had been looking for a lower alcohol alternative with good hop presence and about a month ago I found Drake's Alpha on tap at a local pub. I'm hooked, this is a great beer - and under 4% no less! Look out lawn mower, here I come

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Hey I responded to your other thread...Hoffers has Citra on tap from Green Flash, a 4.5% session IPA with Citra. Similar to Alpha, but I feel a little better. Worth checking out and there is some info on it online...it reminded me of a "smaller" Alpine Hoppy Birthday to be honest.

Thanks Trent, I'll have to try and get by there this week and give it a try! I really like Green Flash beers but when I see them in the store, the prices seem to be a bit over the top. They were one of the first west coast beers that I noticed going to a 4 pack

Be careful. I know with some of the breweries here in Ohio they guard their recipe's like it was made of gold.

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I've had a brewer email me the full brewsheet for their latest batch of a particular beer I loved after I asked. It doesn't hurt to ask (nicely). I know here in Austin a lot of brewers got started through homebrew.

Once, they tell some stranger, that walks into the brewery, what their recipe is. As you walk away, figure, that 99% of what hey told you is smoke and mirrors.

I've had mixed successes with my attempts. Generally, when the person I'm asking is just the guy doing the brewery tours, they're pretty tight-lipped, even for pretty basic recipe questions. Either they don't handle any of the brewing and don't know the details, or they have an across-the-board non-disclosure rule.

If you can talk to the brewmaster, they're usually more accommodating. I know other people have had very good responses from Stone (to the point that they release official clone recipes of several of their beers), and I've had good discussions with people from Oskar Blues and some of the small local places.

Speaking strictly from a business standpoint, there is little value in the recipe itself. Do you think Coca-Cola got so popular because their recipe is that much better than XYZ Cola? No, it was aggressive marketing and expansion. The "secret" recipe is just part of the hype. There certainly nothing "magic" about Budweiser's grain bill that leads to it's crazy success. A proprietary process is more important than ingredients, which can largely be copied via lab tests and trial-and-error.

I think you'll find that most small craft brewers don't mind talking recipes with fans. It helps build customer relationships, and probably strokes their egos a bit to boot. Even if they don't give you their recipe in exact detail per their system, they will often help you dial in a 5 gallon recipe to clone-standards. Do your research ahead of time, be polite, and don't be presumptuous about what information they are or aren't going to give you.

good points hunter. i've emailed russian river asking about a specific beer and vinnie answered me himself giving me detailed explanations about the recipe and process, went back and forth a few times. i was expecting to get some standard email but he was very helpful and gracious. vinnie, like many other excellent brewers, understands that he will not be affected in a negative way by helping other brewers, he can only win. i've heard of brewers refusing to talk about their recipes or process but they are only fooling themselves thinking that there are secrets in brewing.

eastoak said:

good points hunter. i've emailed russian river asking about a specific beer and vinnie answered me himself giving me detailed explanations about the recipe and process, went back and forth a few times. i was expecting to get some standard email but he was very helpful and gracious. vinnie, like many other excellent brewers, understands that he will not be affected in a negative way by helping other brewers, he can only win. i've heard of brewers refusing to talk about their recipes or process but they are only fooling themselves thinking that there are secrets in brewing.

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Exactly! You last two sentences especially.

I work at a brewery and know the "party line" but am seriously wondering what the point of it is. We're ALL buying commercially available yeast/hops/malts that anybody can get. Unless you're propagating some "special" strain of yeast that you've developed then you've got nothing on any other brewer(y).

If you're super interested in THAT recipe then do everything you can to get it: Take beer to the brewer and show him/her that you're serious about brewing and have some skill. Buy THEIR beer. Bring YOUR attempts at the recipe to show on paper. Tell them what you've done to figure it out. Show some skill and interest in the process and they will reward you. Listen to everything they have to say because it may not be so overt. They may express things in percentages or in large kilo/pound quantities. Any bit of information may be useful.

It bugs me when breweries don't give out recipes. For instance, odells, one of my faves. I noticed in the new ipa book by Mitch Steele, the hop bill for their ipa says 15% mystery hop. But otoh I emailed them about which yeast to make a clone of their India red, and they responded in 10 minutes. Wlp001.

eastoak said:

last year i asked my local brewery to help me clone one of their beers and they did help me with the grain bill and gave me liters of yeast slurry to boot. last week that beer got a 2nd place ribbon in the world cup of beer held here in oakland. when i contacted the brewery about my win they asked if they could put a picture of the ribbon on their facebook page and twitter account which was very nice of them. just by coincidence they recently started bottling that particular beer which had previously been a seasonal on tap only beer. the brewery is Drakes Brewery in san leandro ca and the beer is their Alpha Session Ale.

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Any chance you have that recipe for the alpha session around still? I'd love to get my hands on it out herein the Midwest!

Thanks,
Mike.

ftlstrings said:

Any chance you have that recipe for the alpha session around still? I'd love to get my hands on it out herein the Midwest!

Thanks,
Mike.

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i do, i'll get it to you.

eastoak said:

i do, i'll get it to you.

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Please post it!

[this is the info I was graciously provided:

We are actually legging off another batch of Alpha Session today. It should hopefully be on tap at the Barrel House by next week (possibly sooner). Glad you enjoyed it. The grain bill is pretty simple: 95% Marris Otter & 5% Crystal 45. Starting gravity of 9.5P.
Prost!

this is the text from his email to me. the hops are simcoe, citra and ctz but i don't know the proportions exactly so i just made them all late additions, 15 min and later. i assure you everyone will love this beer if you make it, i still make it and everyone still loves it. a 10-15 minute hopstand is key for me. i shoot for about 25-30 ibu of bittering, an oz of simcoe at 10 min then 2oz of citra and ctz at flameout. dryhop with 3 oz of all 3 (1oz of each)for 5-7 days.[/QUOTE]

Also, he mashes at 152, pitches cal ale or us05 at 64 degrees F.

Prost!