Historical Beer: Sahti Sahti (Finnish Juniper Ale) -- 1st Place Cat. 23, 2nd place Best in Show

DerCribben said:

What kind of Finnish bread yeast do you use? I'll be in Finland from 10/14 to 10/29 and if I find the stuff you're all looking for I'll bring some back and mail it to whoever wants me to. Tell me what it is (I'll look into it too) and when I find it there and tell you the cost you can send money to my PayPal to cover the yeast and postage to you and I'll mail it out when I get back to the USA.

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Count me in!!

Reno_eNVy said:

Count me in!!

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Cheers! (or should I say Kippis) I'll post in this thread from Finland, I may try to hook up with some Sahti brewers there too although I don't see a chapter of their club down in Turku where I'll be. Check out www.kotiolut.com (you may want to run it through google translate though), that's the Finnish "housebeer" forum and I bet there's some stuff there on sahti.

DerCribben said:

Cheers! (or should I say Kippis) I'll post in this thread from Finland, I may try to hook up with some Sahti brewers there too although I don't see a chapter of their club down in Turku where I'll be. Check out www.kotiolut.com (you may want to run it through google translate though), that's the Finnish "housebeer" forum and I bet there's some stuff there on sahti.

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Awesome! I would be interested in some.

Reno_eNVy said:

There are quite a few species in the genus juniperus, all of which are actually juniper. My species is californicus. East-coasters have virginiana. Wikipedia has all the species and growing regions.

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Hi from Finland. The correct juniper is Juniperus Communis.

What kind of Finnish bread yeast do you use? I'll be in Finland from 10/14 to 10/29 and if I find the stuff you're all looking for I'll bring some back and mail it to whoever wants me to. Tell me what it is (I'll look into it too) and when I find it there and tell you the cost you can send money to my PayPal to cover the yeast and postage to you and I'll mail it out when I get back to the USA.

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The most common is called "jätkähiiva" or "pullahiiva". It looks like this: http://www03.edu.fi/oppimateriaalit/hygieniaosaaminen/hiivat1.htm
(the top picture) U can find it in every grocery store.
But.. I have a feeling, that this yeast won't live back to the states, I'd might recommend dry bakers yeast. There has been lots of debate about dry yeast vs "wet/block" yeast, but in this case.. Dry yeast might be the best option.

Moi Arska, Kiitos!

That's the stuff I was looking at from suomenhiiva.fi, I figure if I buy it the day I leave it should survive the flight over to my fridge in the states. My hulluvaimo Teija is also convinced Finnish goods wouldn't stay fresh on a flight here. I've talked about bringing ruisleipä back and she swears it will be spoiled before we land lol. Not that we have room after filling our bags with salmiakki anyway

forstmeister said:

Not necessarily fake juniper, but common names of trees and shrubs are very misleading at times. I am curious about the actual species used since all I've seen so far is "juniper" from multiple sources. It could be juniperus virginiana or something else entirely.

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We have mostly juniperus virginiana (aka "eastern red cedar") in North Carolina. I'm tempted to brew with it but I'd like to know if anybody else has.

Also, the advice is to use the mature blue-ish berries, not the green ones, right?

Thanks!

Yeah you'll want to use the blue ones. There are usually a few green ones that sneak in but it's fine.

What OG and FG are we shooting for?

It's right there on the original post:

Exp. OG: 1.054
Exp. FG: 1.012

I picked up the ingredients for a slightly stronger 6 gallon batch (assuming 80% eff), I also modified the recipe a bit.

I hope to brew this tomorrow. I will keep you posted!

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
2.40 lbs 17.02 % Briess Rye Malt 60 mins 1.035
0.90 lbs 6.38 % Briess 2-Row Caramel 120L 60 mins 1.032
4.80 lbs 34.04 % Weyermann Pilsner 60 mins 1.038
4.80 lbs 34.04 % Pale Malt (2 Row) US 60 mins 1.036
1.20 lbs 8.51 % Dark Munich 60 mins 1.038

Did you manage to find juniper branches and berries? And will you be using grains of paradise as well? I feel like they really add something.

Reno_eNVy said:

Did you manage to find juniper branches and berries? And will you be using grains of paradise as well? I feel like they really add something.

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Yes, berries, (some) branches and grains if paradise. I bought the berries because I couldn't find enough mature/blue berries locally. I will use some branches.

I am thinking of doing a sahti in a few weeks. My plan was to actually mash the branches by making a nice layer of berry-laden branches on the bottom of the mash tun and then mashing like normal at 150F for 60 minutes.

In terms of boiling, I want to at least bring it to a quick boil to ensure that everything in it is dead. But I am uncertain if i should take a hit in efficiency and sparge with less water, or if I should go ahead and boil for 60 minutes. And if I boil for 60 minutes, will I have lost enough flavor that i will need to add more berries at flame-out? (I typically boil off almost 2 gallons in an hour.)

So Reno, any branches ready to ship?

I've been working in an area about 5 miles from where I usually harvest. I'm looking at a juniper tree right now completely devoid of berries.

However I am sitting on a geothermal hot spot so that might affect production. I'll be sure to check by my house tonight (higher elevation of ~5200ft, less geothermal activity)

Hey if there is anybody interested in juniper branches and berries to be shipped they will be good to go by the beginning of February.

They will be the species Juniperus californica and have some excellent flavor and aroma. If there is anybody who lives in an area with J. communis or J. virginiana and are willing to ship please speak up. I'm sure there are people who want to pick and choose.

Count me in! I would like enough for 10 gallons. PM the details and I'll get you the $. Thanks!

Well I think the easiest and cheapest thing to do would be to wait for details and payment after other people have expressed interest. Then I can make one trip up to the hills to collect all at once.

I usually fill my jansport backpack full for 5 gallons, and that's roughly 1 cubic foot. But I try not to squish them in or compress them. I imagine I could fit 5 gallons worth into a flatrate big envelope no problem.

I expect it shouldn't be expensive at all.

Provided the expense is manageable, I'd be interested in enough for a 5 gallon batch. Thanks!

Reno_eNVy said:

Well I think the easiest and cheapest thing to do would be to wait for details and payment after other people have expressed interest. Then I can make one trip up to the hills to collect all at once.

I usually fill my jansport backpack full for 5 gallons, and that's roughly 1 cubic foot. But I try not to squish them in or compress them. I imagine I could fit 5 gallons worth into a flatrate big envelope no problem.

I expect it shouldn't be expensive at all.

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Certainly. I'm in no rush. I've been thinking about this brew for a few years and with no juniper here, could not pull it off without some help. I really appreciate your time and effort. If there is anything I can ship out to you from the UP, let me know.

I assume grains of paradise are the same as paradise seeds? Do you crack them first? Also I have dried Juniper Berries that I am using. Should I use the same amount as your recipe is calling for? Junipers do not grow in my area.

macshomebrew said:

I assume grains of paradise are the same as paradise seeds? Do you crack them first? Also I have dried Juniper Berries that I am using. Should I use the same amount as your recipe is calling for? Junipers do not grow in my area.

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You know I'm not really sure on the berries. I'd recommend looking up conversions used when using the berries in food.

And yes, Grains of Paradise = Paradise Seeds

I am in for the juniper berry & branch harvest if you have yet to do it.

Thanks!

It's brew day! I'll be making this one exactly the same as last year and it'll hopefully be done by April 20th, the entry deadline for the local homebrew competition.

Sorry that I never started taking orders for juniper branches. I've been out of town for work since the beginning of February and I just got back the other day. When I stop feeling like a worthless pile I'll start harvesting.

Boiling juniper branches

Juniper liquor and dough in

Boiling hard. Used fermcap for the first time and it is amazing!

Racking!

This sounds awesome, I'm very anxious to try this soon. My family's Norwegian, so I suppose a Finnish brew is close enough. I'm curious if you crack the paradise seeds at all, or do you just bag and boil them? Now I just have to track down some Juniper supplies in Cleveland.

Yup, crack the grains of paradise and just toss them right in.

I had to use dried juniper berries and Nottingham, but I did clip some fresh juniper branches.

The boil and fermentation smells were odd to me.

Now it is in a chilled secondary in an effort to clear, the smell is great.

I almost skipped on making this, but I'm glad I didn't. I'll report back when bottled and cracked open.

I have a couple questions!
When making this, is Juniperus virginiana safe to use? most of the available juniper around here is J. savina, which is toxic.

Also, what character do the boughs add to this that the berries don't? Could I get away with using black tea and juniper berries and spruce essence instead?

Thank you so much for your help!

The Finnish bread yeast is fresh, not dry. It's sold in every food store, even the small ones. It's in the cold cabinets, often right next to the milk. It's pretty small and only costs about 20 cents for a package.

It looks like this:



Easiest way to get some to the North American homebrewing crowd is for someone on a business trip to Finland to pick up a pack and bring it back, start to culture it and share it with others. It probably wouldn't make it past customs in the mail since it's fresh and not dry, but in personal luggage I doubt that it would be an issue.

By the way, "sahti" is prounced with a non-silent H (it's made by forcing your exhale to produce a sound against the top back of your upper palate). This sound doesn't belong to the native english speaker's tongue. And in finnish, the first syllable always receives the stress.

strangegreenman said:

I have a couple questions!
When making this, is Juniperus virginiana safe to use? most of the available juniper around here is J. savina, which is toxic.

Also, what character do the boughs add to this that the berries don't? Could I get away with using black tea and juniper berries and spruce essence instead?

Thank you so much for your help!

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When you boil the boughs in your mash liquor you end up with a ton of sap that adds great piney, slightly sweet, and mildly bitter characters. I've tried brewing this with and without the boughs and it's definitely better with.

Arska said:

Remember to drink it young and keep it cold, it goes infected very, very easy.
Oh and don't forget to build your own "kuurna", here's some pictures (yes it's finnish I know) http://sahti.vuodatus.net/blog/category/KUURINA+MALLEJA

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I read the Kalevala last year and have been interested in brewing sahti since then. I don't think I understand why it would be more susceptible to infection than any other beer. Because there aren't any hops?

Thanks!

There are multiple reasons traditional sahti would be more susceptible to infection:

- No hops, as you mentioned (though I include a tiny bit so I can call it a real beer)
- Traditional Finnish bread yeast might not be as fast acting as beer yeast. If I'm correct in that assumption, the longer lag phase could welcome infection
- Again, traditionally sahti is supposed to be no-boil

But if you do it traditionally (there's that word again!), you shouldn't even need to worry about infection. If I remember correctly, sahti was usually served young and right out of the fermentation vessel.

Reno_eNVy said:

- Traditional Finnish bread yeast might not be as fast acting as beer yeast. If I'm correct in that assumption, the longer lag phase could welcome infection

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My wife uses the bread yeast I posted above when she makes sima. That is the "traditional" Finnish bread yeast. It starts fermentation within 24 hours, just like any other yeast.

Here in Finland, sahti is only sold retail in Alko because it's above 4.7% ABV. The sahti in Alko is between 7.5 and 10% ABV (there are a few different strengths) and it's kept inside a refrigerator, not out on the shelf. It can also be found in brewpubs around the country.

Here are the varieties available in Alko:

http://www.alko.fi/haku/?q=sahti

lschiavo said:

Certainly. I'm in no rush. I've been thinking about this brew for a few years and with no juniper here, could not pull it off without some help. I really appreciate your time and effort. If there is anything I can ship out to you from the UP, let me know.

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Ischiavo-
Why wouldn't you just go for a hike and pick some up? At least you should be able to hit a coast and snag it.
Juniperus Communis is pretty common in Michigan; I've seen it all over the LP and I'll bet dollars to donuts it's at least on the coasts of the UP in a readily findable level.

Check this:
http://michiganflora.net/species.aspx?id=887
Plus the wiki page has good info on identification if this doesn't cut it. I'm not sure if I can grab some in Livingston County, but I know it's along the coasts of north LP (Huron shore) and I'm almost positive I've seen it along the Michigan shore, too.

Just a thought: you may be sitting on a treasure trove....

(I'll combine hobbies: geocaching and brewing so I can go out in the woods and get the juniper I'd love to try this with!)

Nate

Hi again! Thanks for the information about using the boughs. I am a bit concerned about using my local species, J. virginiana, since a lot of websites suggest the branches may be poisonous/irritating (and a lot of others say nothing or suggest they're usable). Has anyone on here brewed with them? Are they safe or did they give you a stomachache?

Not sure what I am going to use for my brew today, spruce twigs or the redcedar twigs I cut yesterday...

Thanks for your help!
SGM

UPDATE: I used blue spruce branches for the mash liquor and to lauter through instead of juniper. Wow, did that smell good! It gave an amber, piney, sappy strike water like you decribed, Reno. It's got Wyeast Weihenstephan Weizen working on it right now (admittedly I'm using my own recipe, but I borrowed heavily on yours) and I can't wait to taste this beer. Also, I don't think I've ever tasted or smelled anything like paradise seeds before in my life. Thanks for posting this recipe and information!

One more update, since I love this thread to pieces.
J. Virginiana probably contains a safe level of thujone to brew with. That said...

My batch of Sahti is fully mature now. Malty, spicy beer, graham-cracker taste, with banana and pine in the back of the nose. The sap bittered the beer very well, too.
It's a different beer than yours, half rye, half pilsner malt and fermented on a weizen yeast, but I wanted to say brewing with spruce/juniper sap and juniper berries is just lovely. Thank you for teaching me how to do it properly!