Sour Ale

So yesterday I brew a gallon of sour ale. What does everyone think? The recipe/process is:

60% home malted pale wheat
40% unmalted wheat

9 IBU- Hersbrucker @ 60 min

Dregs built up on a stir plate from Goose Island Sofie

Double decoction mash of 30 min @122F, 30 @ 140F and 30 @ 158F. Pulled 3.5 pints the first decoction and boiled 20 min. Pulled a little over 4 pints the second decoction and boiled 20 min.

OG: 1.052

The yeast starter was built a week ago, and put in the fridge upon completion. (I know, not a good idea, especially leaving it in the flask with just aluminum foil over it) but I pitched around 4 tblsp. I guessed, it was about a 5 second pour from flask to carboy. Anywho, I had signs of fermentation in 2 hrs. And this morning (about 16hrs) I had a nice krausening building already (about 3/4" thick).

So, I'm going to let primary run it's course, transfer and add a few 2" pieces of red oak 1" dowel. Let it run 6-12 months then add fruit. Not sure what yet, but something in season and fresh. Then I'll let that ferment 3-4 mo and probably bottle.

Last, I may pitch some lacto from my sourdough starter or some yogurt whey. I'll just wait and see how it goes first.

What's everyone think?

First thought is that a decoction mashed one gallon sour seems like a lot of work. That said, looks good to me.

Just matilda dregs wont give you a sour. Theres sach and brett, but you need some lacto and pedio to get the lactic and acetic character.

I used Sofie dregs. The only info I found on Sofie was Sacch and Brett is in the dregs. That's why I mentioned adding lacto in the form of yogurt whey. With that said, would you consider this not a sour with it only containing Brett and Sacch? I understand some sours contain all of the bugs, but some don't. In what form can I acquire pedio, other than purchasing a vial or pack of it? I haven't done any research on this yet.

In regards to your comment on all of this work for just a gallon. On a typical brew day for 5 gallons, it takes me around 5-6 hrs. If I were to do a decoction, it would take me 7-8 or possibly longer. When I do 1 gallon brews of a simple mash schedule or even a decoction, I can be pitching in 3 hrs. I have a medical condition that limits me to stay for long periods. So I brew 1 gallon batches in the house where i can sit. I could brew 2-3 gallons but my smaller pots don't have a valve, which consists of me picking up the kettle, which with my medical condition, I can't lift things over 25 lbs! So this is why I brew 1 gallon batches. I have a time limitation because I have 2 daughters that I like spending time with and not brewing. With that, thank you for your input although it's wasn't pertaining to the questions I asked. There is alot of great info on this forum, but you have to sift through people like you to get to the good info. Have a great day, think about assisting others and not giving useless comments.

southpawbrasserie said:

There is alot of great info on this forum, but you have to sift through people like you to get to the good info. Have a great day, think about assisting others and not giving useless comments.

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Way to be an ass. You asked openly what people thought. He gave you his thoughts.

Hear hear, RAM! Sour ale does seem appropriate, huh?

I don't mean to be that way. Like I said, with my medical condition, I can not brew 5 gallon batches anymore without help. (all I can really do is direct and supervise whomever helps me). I understand it is alot of work to decoct a 1 gallon batch, but this is better than not brewing right?

I was just trying to relay that I am on homebrew talk to gather information and learn more. When someone replys with a comment that isn't helpful, or just trying to belittle someone, it bothers me. Have a great day!

Sorry, but that is reading a lot into any of the comments to say that they weren't helpful or trying to belittle someone.
Brett won't give you sour, but will give you funk and perhaps fruity. Your thoughts on adding lacto of some sort would be right if you want sour.
Good luck with your medical condition and your brewing.
Cheers.

Decoction for a sour brew is totally unnecessary. If there is brett, and especially if there is bacteria like pedio or lacto, the (minimal) added fermentability that comes with decoction won't be needed. If you did the decoction for flavor, just add a bit of melanoiden malt, or munich or anything else that will give you a bit of that flavor.

Brett probably won't get it too sour. Might not get sour at all. Since grain is covered with lactobacillus, just toss a small handful of unmilled grain into the fermenter. It'll get sour.

A starter is also not necessary for a sour beer. In fact, sour beers are super easy to make (but they take a long time).

southpawbrasserie said:

I don't mean to be that way.

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Then don't. I think you have a chip on your shoulder. You should cut that **** out asap. We're here to help.

Skip the red oak dowel pieces. You want white oak and not just in the beer for flavor. The idea with sour and wood is that the wood is the barrier between the beer and the outside air allowing a very small amount in through the wood.

If you can see the recipe, I used 100% wheat. After looking around on the web, a decoction was recommended if using just wheat. I built a starter because I want to use the Sofie dregs in more that just this batch. I only pitched a portion of that starter in. The oak dowel will be protruding out of the carboy opening. Since I am using glass, this will allow the oxygen needed for the bugs. I will be using more than just these dregs for yeast/bacteria. I asked the question of where can I harvest pedio other that a commercial yeast supplier? I will be pitching in some grain for lacto, i malted some acidulated wheat which will have a higher concentration of lacto. And the comment on needing white oak instead of red, look around the web and especially the latest Zymurgy. Red oak is perfectly fine to use, from what all of these articles say, it has a stronger flavor than white. So if you like the different oak character in red, wouldn't this wood be preferred over white. Less time in contact with the beer to get the same amount of oak character. Thanks all!

Grain has pediococcus on it, as well as lactobacillus. Lacto prefers anaerobic fermentation, and pedio prefers aerobic fermentation. You could get character of both with some manipulation.

Did know that grain had pedio. I did know there was lacto present. So what's this manipulation consist of?

southpawbrasserie said:

Did know that grain had pedio. I did know there was lacto present. So what's this manipulation consist of?

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Read the book. I'm gonna get it soon. Time, temperature, pitching rate, oxygen exposure, etc.

Did you take an OG, I am interested in how much an all wheat batch would convert, even with a decoction. Most all wheat recipes I see have a few oz of 2 or even 6-row thrown in for enzymes.

mbauer013 said:

Did you take an OG, I am interested in how much an all wheat batch would convert, even with a decoction. Most all wheat recipes I see have a few oz of 2 or even 6-row thrown in for enzymes.

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Modern, well-modified wheat malt has enough enzyme to self-convert.

mbauer013 said:

Did you take an OG, I am interested in how much an all wheat batch would convert, even with a decoction. Most all wheat recipes I see have a few oz of 2 or even 6-row thrown in for enzymes.

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Another worthwhile book to buy even if it is available online.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html

Short answer: It will convert without a decoction, but a protein rest would be wise.

southpawbrasserie said:

Did know that grain had pedio. I did know there was lacto present. So what's this manipulation consist of?

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In short, for pedio you want sour fermentation to be open to oxygen, for lacto you want the souring to be sealed from oxygen with something like foil covering the entire surface. You could do half open/pedio wort and half sealed/lacto wort and blend the two, or do it a million other ways.

I malted this wheat myself and was concerned about the enzymes established. The first brew I made was a pale wheat with around 20 ibus. OG: 1.052 and it finished @ 1.016. A few points higher but it left enough residual to balance out. I'm assuming with the different bugs I have in and plan to add will get a lower FG.