Hibiscus Saison-Feedback?

i've never made a saison or used hibiscus before, but i thought i'd give it a try. how does this recipe sound?

grains/extract
.25 lb honey malt
.5 lb munich malt
2 lbs flaked wheat
6.25 lbs breiss pilsner liquid malt extract
1.5 lbs light dry malt extract

hops
1 oz centennial (60 min)
1 oz east kent goldings (15 min)
1 oz centennial (flameout)

"dry hop" after primary w/2 oz dried hibiscus flowers

cheers!

I have had good results when i added the floweres to the mash, i Used two whole flowers right off the plant. I would add them at flame out for this recipe

Looks pretty good. I like my Saisons dry so I would consider a little less extract and adding some sugar to help dry it out. But that is my taste.

The hibiscus dry hop sounds interesting. Keep us posted how it turns out.

interesting idea about using the fresh flowers. unfortunately, i'll only have access to the dried sepals available at the local mexican tienda, which are tasty nonetheless.

i do like the idea of drying it out with sugar. i could see the "cidery" flavors actually working with the whole. how much would you suggest? thanks!

i do like the idea of drying it out with sugar. i could see the "cidery" flavors actually working with the whole. how much would you suggest? thanks!

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I looked in my brew log and most of the saions I have brewed are in to 1.060-1.065 range. They all used 1 lb of sugar. You did not mention the yeast but I use 3711 and it usually takes them down to the 1.004 range. Nice and dry. YUM

I will be interested to see how your brew turns out. Sounds tasty.

thanks! i'll swap out the DME for 1 lb of sugar.

how long have you aged your saisons for? i've seen people say they should sit in bottles for at least 3 months...

They do change with age but are good after they carb up. They do not change a dramaticaly as Belgians but the change is more subtle.

I usually put half in 12 oz bottles and half in 22 oz bottles. I start to drink the 12 oz bottles after about four weeks of carbing and save the 22 oz bottles to age.

That reminds me, I have a couple of them aging and am going to throw a couple of bottles in the fridge. It has been a while since I tasted them.

I havent made a Hibiscus Saison but I have made a Lavender Saison and a Hibiscus Wit. It was a Honey Hibiscus Wit, I can send the recipe for either one if you are interested. I used 6 oz hibiscus and added at 15 minutes left in boil. I only noticed a small amount of hibiscus flavor in the brew, and a lot of color from the hibiscus. My brew was very red to almost purple in color. It also seemed to dry it out a bit, but maybe that was from the 1 lb honey, not sure. Overall it was a good beer if you like the wit style. Let me know if you are interested in seeing the recipes.

I've made a wheat beer with 100g (3,5 oz) of hibiscus at 10 min for a 19L (5 gallons) batch. The color was perfect red and the taste was between rasberry and red herbal tea and it was also a little acid. If you "dry hop" I think the taste will be subtle and not too red.

I've not used Hibiscus. I keep meaning to. If you do a search, I think there are several threads on it. If using Hibiscus, I would cut down on the finishing hops, otherwise they will clash. Maybe drop the Cent at 0, and split the EKG into two and add it at 15 and 5.

To your recipe:

You are wasting your time and money with

.25 lb honey malt
.5 lb munich malt
2 lbs flaked wheat

All 3 of these need to be mashed. Steeping will not get you anything. Even if you were planning on mashing, the Honey and Munich malt do not have enough enzymes to convert the wheat. They may add a little flavor, will add no sugars, and will probably make the beer cloudy with the starches they will put in your beer.

I would probably just go with the extract (Both the LME and DME that you have), and add 1.5 lbs of table sugar (after main fermentation has passed), and it should give you something like 1.070 OG. If you can get some wheat extract, maybe use a couple of lbs of that (LME or DME), but I would not worry about getting it if it is difficult. Belgians/Saisons do not normally have any crystal.

The sugar will not give you a cidery taste. It will not add any taste, it will add alcohol and help dry the beer out.

Use a Belgian yeast. Belgians are all about the yeast. If you are trying for a Saison, do not use S-05, S-04, Notty, or other non-Belgian/Saison yeast. And make sure you ferment about 75 F (depends a lot on the yeast, but Belgians do better at higher temperatures - Some need to be in the 80s to give their best such as the dupont strain). As someone noted, 3711 is a beast, and does bring out its profile at a lower temperature than most Saison yeasts. I'm still trying to figure out if I like it or not; when the beer is young, I have not been impressed, but a few bottles I left for a year have been quite impressive.

I hope some of this is useful, I don't want to put you off, an Hibiscus Saison sounds interesting. Good luck

great advice here! thanks, everyone. this forum is extremely useful! i'm still mulling over some ideas and will post the final recipe and notes once ready. cheers!

brew meister, i would love to see those recipes.

calder, thanks so much for the detailed feedback. i'm still relatively new to this and it was of great help.

Here is my Partial mash Saison recipe:
.5 lbs pilsner 2-row
.5 lbs white wheat malt
.5 lbs flaked wheat
.5 lbs aromatic
4 lbs wheat dry extract
3 lbs extra light dry extract

2 oz Tradition (60 mins)
1 oz Hallertauer (5 mins)
3 tsp lemon zest (15 mins)
.5 oz Paradise seeds (15 mins)

1 vial WLP 568 Belgian Style Saison Blend

And here is the Hibiscus Wit:
1 lbs flaked oats
.5 lbs pilsner 2-row
.5 lbs white wheat malt
5 lbs wheat dry extract
1 lb honey

1 oz Hallertauer (30 mins)
.5 oz coriander (15 mins)
6 oz hibiscus (15 mins)
.5 oz orange peel (5 mins)

1 vial WLP 400 Belgian Wit Ale

I did these before I went to all grain and had limits on boil size. I basically steeped grains in 2 gallons 155 degree water for 20 minutes, added water to 3.5-4 gallons and began boil. I topped off after boil to 5.25 gallons before pitching yeast. They both turned out pretty well. The Hibiscus is a bit like a wine cooler (very red and slightly dry). I am not sure if it is from the hibiscus or the honey. Good luck with your brew! Hope these help out.

I would not dry hop with the hibiscus. It will can translate to a perfume like quality. I'd suggesting using some in the last 20-30 minutes of the boil. It will carry into the flavor nicely and be subtle...Adding flowers to the carboy can make some beers ultra perfume like. It's also more sanitary to boil the flowers...Any extra flowers that seep into the primary while transfering will carry over a bit of the aromas.

I just tasted a 6 week old rye saison that had an ounce of hibiscus in the last 5 minutes of the boil and was dry hopped with another 2 ounces. Really quite nice, but strong flavors and not subtle at all. I used 3711 which attenuated to 92%. An ounce at the end of the boil did not alter the color much, just a touch of pink and a nice light aroma. As stated above, the dry hop was a bit much and turned the beer bright red with a pink head. I wouldnt say its perfumey, but its strong and unique. Looks cool but I think it needs a few months to blend all those strong flavors. Let me know if youre interested in the recipe.

grundig, i'd love to see the recipe. at this point, i'm veering away from dry hopping with the flowers and adding them toward the end of the boil.

i'm curious; i've seen a lot of people recommend adding the sugar after primary fermentation. when you do this, do you add the sugar to the primary fermenter after the initial fermentation takes place or add it to the secondary? also, what are the benefits to such a late addition? is it to boost up tired yeasts?

The boil does nothing for simple sugars, and leaving it out allows you to do a lower gravity boil (more hop utilization), and lets the yeast start off with a lower osmotic pressure, which is good in a higher alcohol beer (too much sugar in the wort is bad for them).

It also lets the yeast work on the more complex sugars first.

For a really big beer, you might have a few additions, but mostly it is just one. Ensure you leave room in the fermenter for it. You add the extra sugar as the fermentation starts to slow down (day 3 or 4), and you add it to the primary. Dissolve the sugar in a little water, boil (to get rid of any O2 in the water), cool ad add straight to fermenter.

My recipe was to net 8 gallons because I wanted to sour 3 of them and use WY3711 on the other 5 gallons. So here is the breakdown:

70% Belgian Pilsner
21% Rye Malt
6% Sucrose (added after a week primary, boiled and chilled)
2% Acidulated Malt (leave this out if you want)
Mashed this at 148 and then bittered with EKG hops to get about 20 IBU's.
OG: 1.055, FG: 1.004
I used 1 ounce of dried hibiscus added throughout the last 5 minutes of the boil and into the chilling process (when the wort was about 180). No real scientific reason. I then dry hopped after 3 weeks with an ounce of EKG and 2 ounces hibiscus.

how did the soured ones end up? i've been curious about acidulated malt.

OP, have you tasted hibiscus before?

I had Rosée D'hibiscus from Brasserie Dieu Du Ciel and I actually found the flavor of the hibiscus quite off-putting. It gave the whole thing a wine/juice aspect that I personally did not like.

i have, in fact, tasted hibiscus before in the mexican drink, jamaica. a bunch of times. i like it's sour, dried fruit taste. could definitely see where overdoing it could ruin a batch, but i'm thinking that the sour, almost cranberry-like flavor could mix well with the citrusy hops in a dry beer like a saison (some of which, like fantome, are pretty sour-fruity).

and on top of that, i think it'll look cool.

finally back home for a long enough period of time, so i'm gonna finally make this one. here's my final recipe:

6.25 lb pilsner LME
1.25 lbs table sugar
.5 oz centennial (60 min)
1 oz east kent goldings (15 min)
.5 oz centennial (5 min)
2.5 oz dried hibiscus flowers (15 min)
1 oz hibiscus (dry hop)--maybe, depending on taste of wort after primary fermentation
wyeast 3711 (french saison)

thanks to everyone for the advice! will report back on this one once its ready...cheers!

Have you brewed this yet? I'm thinking of making a lemon saison, or hefeweizen and have been reading a lot of good things about amarillo, but also specifically Sorachi Ace hops and the wonderful citrus notes that they can impart. Seems like they might work real well with a hibiscus saison. What do you think?

just started this up last weekend. after a super vigorous primary fermentation at 78f for a couple days, it's starting to mellow out. i'm gonna add the sugar this weekend to dry it out.

i think a lemon saison would be great. i've heard great things about sorachi ace hops, but haven't tried them yet. i think brooklyn has made a single-hop saison with sorachi, which got mixed reviews (i never got my hands on one). i recently came across the idea of infusing the priming sugar-water mixture with citrus zest, ginger, etc. seems like a perfect way of imparting an intense flavor just before bottling. that might be something to think about too. cheers!

I look forward to seeing your final recipe!

just thought i'd give an update on this one...

bottled it today after just under 30 days in the primary. for the initial fermentation and the secondary fermentation (with the pound of table sugar), i kept the temperature atabout 80 and then at 68-70 for the remaining couple weeks. i hadn't heard about people boosting the temps for the 3711 french saison yeast, but i thought i'd give it a try. and...

the gravity sample had a really nice ester profile, mostly banana. the hibiscus added at 15 min didn't give much by way of color, but was present in the taste just slightly. hops were pretty minimal. it would have been fine as is, but i thought that i would add 1/4 oz of dried hibiscus steeped in 2 c of boiling water to the bottling bucket (after it cooled) for color and added complexity. the sample i tasted after i added the extra hibiscus was really nice, though we'll see what happens after bottling...

thanks again to all who offered input!

tried my first one of these just a couple days ago. here are my notes, just in case anyone is thinking about trying this recipe:

Nice, spritzy flavor. The hibiscus provides a subtle cranberry note that works well with the citrus of the centennial. Lightly cloudy pinkish orange color. Very dry (FG 1.08). Well-carbonated but no head. Esters present, but much less prominent than at bottling. Easy drinking. I wonder if the Belgian saison yeast would generate stronger esters and phenolics. Taste became more complex as it warmed up from fridge temps.

Reviving this old thread. Going to brew a hibiscus saison next weekend split batch with half 3711 and half built up Fantom dregs. Here's my recipe.

SRM: 4.6 SRM
IBU: 30.3 IBUs
OG: 1.061 SG
FG: 1.005 SG
Est ABV: 7.4 %
EE%: 78.00 %
Batch: 11.00 gal

Total Grain Weight: 22 lbs 3.2 oz Total Hops: 6.00 oz oz.

10 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel
10 lbs Wheat Malt, Bel
2 lbs 3.2 oz Turbinado

Mash 148.0 F 75 min

2.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - First Wort 18.6 IBUs
2.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 15.0 8.4 IBUs
2.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 5.0 3.4 IBUs

Primary at 80F

---NOTES------------------------------------
Split Batch
1/2 - 3711 French Saison
1/2 - Fantome Dregs

Hibiscus Tea at Kegging
6 oz of Hibiscus Flowers in 6 cups of 200 F water in French press. 3 cups of Tea per keg