$35 RIMS Heater?

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freddyb

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I've been slowly putting together an electric brewing setup and I've been on the fence about going HERMS or RIMS. The well documented builds by The Pol and Sawdustguy, as well as the other outstanding systems on HBT, have been very helpful in my investigation.:mug: I have already converted a cooler (my former MLT) into an electric HLT and I'm now trying to decide how I want to maintain mash temp in my new insulated keggle MLT.

Today I stumbled across this interesting piece on eBay. I'm hoping that I can use it as a RIMS heater. I don't mind the additional PID/SSR required for RIMS vs. a HERMS setup and I'm not trying to turn this into a HERMS vs. RIMS debate. I'd like to get some feedback from members on the board as to whether or not this will make a suitable RIMS heater.

It was advertised as a 'Watlow Inline Tube Heater.'
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Here's what else the auction said about this thing:

- Used/Removed from working medical surplus, in excellent condition
- Heatron/Watlow Firerod 1300 watt, 120vac, p/n N7L-5813 Type CR9
- Overall length: 9"
- Diameter: 1.25"
- Quick connect inlet/outlet diameter: 0.375"
- Includes quick connect couplers shown (0.375" to 1/4" tube)
- Stainless Steel

It also appears to have a thermocouple or something mounted in one of the plastic connectors. It would be even cooler if it's some sort of 'wet/dry' detecting switch used to prevent burning out the element, but I won't keep my hopes up. The wire leads appear to be uncut in one picture but cut in another. I'll just have to take a look when it arrives.

Potential concerns?
- Safe for brewing use? The body is SS so it should be easy enough to clean but I don't know about the element and gasket material. I can probably cut a new gasket out of silicone if necessary. If this was used as some sort of blood sterilizer I might not want to brew in it.
- Heating element density will scorch wort? Anyone with experience building a heating element and then redesigning it due to scorched wort? Maybe it's possible to replace the element in the end cap with a lower wattage/density solution.
- Inlet/outlet diameter of 3/8" (doesn't specify if that's inner or outer, but it looks to be the outer diameter) too small for good flow through the heater? I'll be circulating with my march pump. If the inlets are this small, will it be able to move the wort fast enough to avoid scorching?

Any comments or feedback would be much appreciated.
 
I am sure you can clean & sterilize it. But I would always be thinking of Kidney failure when drinking my beers. Make sure the QD's are able to handle the temps of Wort and your right the flow might give your pumps a challenge.
 
- Heating element density will scorch wort? Anyone with experience building a heating element and then redesigning it due to scorched wort? Maybe it's possible to replace the element in the end cap with a lower wattage/density solution.

I think this will be the biggest issue. 1300 watts in a 6 inch space. It is going to be hard to find a low watt element in that length and by necessity the wattage would be limited.
 
I think it's an interesting find. My only concerns would be (1) flow limitations due to the size of the tubing, (2) heat density of the element, and (3) distance from the element to the temperature sensor.

For the price, I say give it a shot. :)
 
Thanks for your replies. If I set the 'output high limit' on my PID to 50%, I should be able to mitigate the risk of scorching the wort, right? That would effectively turn the 1300W element into a 650W element, I think. I might even be able to set the output limit to a lower value and still maintain mash temps. I guess some trial and error experimentation using water instead of wort will help me determine the temp stability with various settings.
 
This tube heater arrived in the mail yesterday. I took it apart and gave it a soak in PBW. I'm going to toss the plastic compression fittings and just clamp some hoses to the in/out connections. Here's a picture of the cartridge-type, stainless steel element.

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I calculated the surface area of the element to be 16.36in^2 so at full power (1300W) it's still a reasonable density of just under 80 W/in^2. I think that falls right around the "low density" mark. Plus, the flow through the in/out pipes is good...faster than I'd likely want to recirculate through the grain bed in the mash.

I'm going to move forward with my RIMS plans and see how it works out.
 
I finished my control box and rigged up some plumbing for this heater tube. It's running quite well with the tap-water wet run out in the garage. Haven't put it to the ultimate test of a brewday quite yet. I still need to wrap up the plumbing, rig a sparge arm, and take care of a number of other miscellaneous items.

It seems to be heating from tap temps (~80*F) a bit more slowly than the 1440W eHLT cooler conversion that I built. I guess that's to be expected with the lower wattage and reduced insulation on the keg MLT. Still, I have no doubt it will be able to maintain a nice, stable temp throughout the mash once I get the PID settings dialed in. A few more tests are needed to tell if it will have the oomph necessary for step (ramp) mashes.

At first I had issues with very poor flow rates. With ~3.5ft. of 1/2" hose from the MLT out valve to the pump, ~3ft. of 3/8" hose to the heater tube/temp probe setup, and another ~6ft. of 3/8" hose feeding back into the top of the MLT, the flow was trickling out at a pathetic dribble. At that point I didn't even feel comfortable firing the element for fear of losing prime and burning it out. But, I cut out the excess 3/8" hose where I could, reducing the total length by about 4ft., and it's now flowing great...much, much faster than I'd actually want to recirculate during the mash. So that answers the question about adequate flow rate.

I ended up putting the thermocouple probe in a brass tee about 4" downstream from the heating element, so I'm pretty sure I'll get accurate measurements without any issues.

As for the wort scorching, I'll report back after I have a chance to brew with this setup, but I'm not anticipating any issues.

Below are a few pictures.

Control Box. I'll admit I didn't put a whole lot of thought or planning into this, but I tried to arrange it to be easily expandable for my eventual conversion to an all-electric setup. Right now the top left switch controls main power to the box, bottom left is for the pump, bottom right kills the hot leg to the RIMS element. I realize that some parts of the box are water resistant and others, well...aren't. It's still a work in progress.
controlbox.jpg



MLT. Obviously this is a temporary setup. It's in the garage brewery storage area. I'm working on a more convenient arrangement. Control box is perched on top of the eHLT. RIMS element is protruding from the keg handle...I kinda like it there. It's out of the way but needs to be securely mounted. The zip tie is holding the brass tee from moving. Thermocouple wire (small yellow one) is wrapped around the back of the MLT. I might lengthen the short hose between the RIMS element and the brass tee to avoid a kink in the future. The probe end and swagelok fitting for the thermocouple are from Derrin (Welcome to Brewer's Hardware). I need to figure out how to make this more permanent/waterproof as the masking tape currently holding it in place is probably not going to last very long.
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Between receiving the tube heater and rigging up this test, I assumed that it would be a nice setup, so I pulled the trigger on a few more of these. I now have four of these RIMS tubes. One is already spoken for but I might be willing to let one or two go if anyone wants to create a similar setup. I also have a bunch of extra SSRs and a few PIDs.
 
I would not worry too much about the RIMS tube heating slower than your e-kettle element. The idea of the RIMS is to maintain the temperature of the mash so 650 watts may be enough to do that task depending on the batch size. The only way to know is to try it. I am curious to find out about the scortching issue too.
 
Is that a coffee can protecting your pump housing?

Yes, it is. I bought the stand, pump, and MLT from a member on the forums. It has worked well so far, but I'm planning on moving to a cart/stand setup so I'll relocate the pump and everything else once I figure out how I want it to be set up.
 
I am curious to find out about the scortching issue too.

Any tips on how to judge wort scorching? Simple visual inspection for darker coloring and smell/taste test should work, right?

For the first brewing run, I'm thinking about doing a side-by-side mash to compare the keg/pump/RIMS setup with a small 'control' mash without any direct heat. I can use my little Coleman 6-pack cooler with a grain bag but I'm not sure it'll have the thermal mass to hold temps well. As long as the grist and water/grain ratio are the same, I think this should tell me if scorching is an issue.

The issue of wort scorching seems to come up a lot around here, but I haven't heard any specific instances of scorching occurring with an electric RIMS system. Are there any links to horror stories that I can check out?
 
I am interested in one of those, pending your test results. I would think you could run half a mash batch using a light malt and the rims, then do the other half without the rims and check for color, taste, and smell differences.
Sweet!
 
Any tips on how to judge wort scorching? Simple visual inspection for darker coloring and smell/taste test should work, right?

For the first brewing run, I'm thinking about doing a side-by-side mash to compare the keg/pump/RIMS setup with a small 'control' mash without any direct heat. I can use my little Coleman 6-pack cooler with a grain bag but I'm not sure it'll have the thermal mass to hold temps well. As long as the grist and water/grain ratio are the same, I think this should tell me if scorching is an issue.

The issue of wort scorching seems to come up a lot around here, but I haven't heard any specific instances of scorching occurring with an electric RIMS system. Are there any links to horror stories that I can check out?

You will know it when it happens. The sugars will caramelize. Actually that what scortching is, caramelizing the sugars in the mash because they were heated too much. Thank goodness I have not had that happen yet. The reason it happens is with a high density heater the heat is concentrated over a smaller area. The density refers to the amount of watts per square inch. For example, high density is rated at 150+ watts per square inch, low density is rated at 75+ watts per square inch, and extra low density is rated at 50+ watts per square inch. Thats why you will find lower density elements are usually longer. I hope that helps.
 
You will know it when it happens. The sugars will caramelize. Actually that what scortching is, caramelizing the sugars in the mash because they were heated too much. Thank goodness I have not had that happen yet. The reason it happens is with a high density heater the heat is concentrated over a smaller area. The density refers to the amount of watts per square inch. For example, high density is rated at 150+ watts per square inch, low density is rated at 75+ watts per square inch, and extra low density is rated at 50+ watts per square inch. Thats why you will find lower density elements are usually longer. I hope that helps.

Good info, thanks. I mentioned earlier that I calculated the watt density to be just under 80 watts per square inch, but I realize that it's all just numbers until I put it to the test. I'll report back after this weekend when I have a chance to brew.
 
I whipped up a batch of Brewpastor's Anchor Steam clone (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/steam-california-common-bastard-lager-7967/) today using this RIMS setup.

The ability to adjust the strike water temp directly in the MLT after transferring from the HLT was very convenient. Once I reached my calculated strike temp of 161*F, I doughed-in and started recirculating. Set the Watlow PID controller to 153*F and let it run. I recirculated fairly slowly because I didn't want to compact the grain bed too much.

My target sacch rest temp was 152*F but since I wasn't using a real sparge arm, but rather a silicone hose draining onto a plate, I had some inconsistent temp readings throughout the mash. The temp varied by up to 3*F, with the higher readings (153*F) coming near the output of the return hose and the lower readings (150*F) towards the perimeter of the MLT. In the future, I plan to build a sparge arm that will distribute the return wort more evenly for more consistent temps. Not too worried about it this time.

After the sacch rest, I bumped the PID setting to 168*F for a 10 minute mashout. I found that if the set point was too high (maybe 5*F) above the actual temp reading, the controller would turn the element on 100% of the time and I'd hear a boiling noise from the RIMS heater. I didn't want to risk scorching so I walked the temp up from sacch temp to mash out over 10 or 15 minutes manually, going one or two degrees at a time. I'll need to tweak the PID settings (increase the derivative?, perform the auto-tune function?) to get a more gentle rise towards the set point...unless this boiling noise is normal for an electric RIMS heater. Anyone with eRIMS experience care to chime in here?

I didn't notice any burnt flavors, odors, or discoloration in the wort so I'm certain it wasn't scorched, but I do see potential for scorching if the PID settings aren't managed well. I'll be playing around with the controller over the next few weeks to get it dialed in.

Since I recirculated for over an hour and had a beautifully clear, golden-amber wort, I decided to take advantage of the nicely set filter bed and try fly-sparging for the first time. I pumped water from the HLT through the RIMS element and gravity-drained the MLT into the brew kettle. I left the PID on during the process to make sure I was hitting my sparge water temp. Another added benefit is that the sparge water rinsed and cleaned the RIMS loop, expediting the cleanup afterwards. The sparge was only about 30 minutes, but I ended up with really good efficiency and overshot my target OG by 3 or 4 points. Despite the new processes and equipment, this was one of my fastest all-grain brewdays.

Overall I'm really happy with this mash setup and I'm looking forward to making the jump to an electric brew kettle in the future.
 
I whipped up a batch of Brewpastor's Anchor Steam clone (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/steam-california-common-bastard-lager-7967/) today using this RIMS setup.

The ability to adjust the strike water temp directly in the MLT after transferring from the HLT was very convenient. Once I reached my calculated strike temp of 161*F, I doughed-in and started recirculating. Set the Watlow PID controller to 153*F and let it run. I recirculated fairly slowly because I didn't want to compact the grain bed too much.

My target sacch rest temp was 152*F but since I wasn't using a real sparge arm, but rather a silicone hose draining onto a plate, I had some inconsistent temp readings throughout the mash. The temp varied by up to 3*F, with the higher readings (153*F) coming near the output of the return hose and the lower readings (150*F) towards the perimeter of the MLT. In the future, I plan to build a sparge arm that will distribute the return wort more evenly for more consistent temps. Not too worried about it this time.

After the sacch rest, I bumped the PID setting to 168*F for a 10 minute mashout. I found that if the set point was too high (maybe 5*F) above the actual temp reading, the controller would turn the element on 100% of the time and I'd hear a boiling noise from the RIMS heater. I didn't want to risk scorching so I walked the temp up from sacch temp to mash out over 10 or 15 minutes manually, going one or two degrees at a time. I'll need to tweak the PID settings (increase the derivative?, perform the auto-tune function?) to get a more gentle rise towards the set point...unless this boiling noise is normal for an electric RIMS heater. Anyone with eRIMS experience care to chime in here?

I didn't notice any burnt flavors, odors, or discoloration in the wort so I'm certain it wasn't scorched, but I do see potential for scorching if the PID settings aren't managed well. I'll be playing around with the controller over the next few weeks to get it dialed in.

Since I recirculated for over an hour and had a beautifully clear, golden-amber wort, I decided to take advantage of the nicely set filter bed and try fly-sparging for the first time. I pumped water from the HLT through the RIMS element and gravity-drained the MLT into the brew kettle. I left the PID on during the process to make sure I was hitting my sparge water temp. Another added benefit is that the sparge water rinsed and cleaned the RIMS loop, expediting the cleanup afterwards. The sparge was only about 30 minutes, but I ended up with really good efficiency and overshot my target OG by 3 or 4 points. Despite the new processes and equipment, this was one of my fastest all-grain brewdays.

Overall I'm really happy with this mash setup and I'm looking forward to making the jump to an electric brew kettle in the future.

Congratulations! I am so glad you RIMS tube heater worked so well. It cost you a fraction of what it cost me to build mine and worked every bit as well. Good job and a great find.
 
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