Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

hbr2547 said:

Should I rep itch and agitate

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I don't think you need to do that. I think your beer will attenuate to its fullest without re-pitching.

meadowstream said:

I don't think you need to do that. I think your beer will attenuate to its fullest without re-pitching.

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Okay great!!!! Thanks

FredTheNuke said:

CSI and g-star thank you for the info. Call me nutz but I'm going to try something a bit in the middle. Unfort I won't have results for another 18 months... I'm going to tie up six 5 gallon kegs in a constant West 12 clone rotation. I typically brew 15 gallon batches - so every time 3 are open I'll brew another 017x batch. They will be cellared at a constant temp of 52F. The question is force carb them or let them carb in the keg with some tasty yeast and sugar. Heck I may try 3 of each as the first round will be 2 batches (I'm sure I won't wait the entire year to drink the first 3...) I figure i'll end up in a rotation of making a 15 gallon batch every 6 months if they turn out as good as I'm expecting. I'll temporarily tie up 3 more kegs at the 6 month point to get the leapfrogging batches in sync. I figure it will age in an SS keg the same as a glass bottle given the proper temperatures.

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I'd like to know how this goes also. Keep us in the loop...

hbr2547 said:

The chamber has been at mid seventies and the internal temp was up to 83 when I left for work...now 76 and falling. I'm gonna bring temp of chamber up to rise internal

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I've seen some fermentations rise and fall in less than 12 hours visually missing the high krausen. If the initial rise to 83 was unaided you should be in very good shape. The repitching method mentioned from Jamil Z. is a last resort, (it does work for a stuck fermentation but isn't a first choice). Patience...

Thanks to everyone for their wonderful information. I made CSI's 17a (Old World) with some modifications (instead of decocting, I cheated and used some melanoidin malt which I know won't be the same) on December 27th. Hit my OG and FG and had the temperature right where it should be during fermentation. It has been sitting for awhile in its keg for secondary. I am planning on bottling it next week and I have a question on how best to do that since I rarely bottle condition. Sorry if this is very newbie. My options seem to be:
1) Open the keg, rack to a bottling bucket, add yeast and sugar, use bottling wand
2) Leave keg closed, use picnic tap to bottling bucket, add yeast and sugar, use bottling wand
3) Open the keg, add yeast and sugar, close keg, pressurize, and use picnic tap to bottle
4) Other?

Since the D-180 and the yeast are going to be heavy, will I need to stir the bottling bucket or keg periodically to make sure it is evenly distributed?

As far as the options above, I'd love to be able to do #3 since it seems to least amount of risk of contamination and oxygen, but I just don't know if it allows good movement of the beer, yeast, and sugar. Also, I'm assuming even with the CO2 turned on just high enough for pushing the beer out, it will still add some additional CO2.

Thoughts? Thanks again for all the help and information.

CSI said:

I've seen some fermentations rise and fall in less than 12 hours visually missing the high krausen. If the initial rise to 83 was unaided you should be in very good shape. The repitching method mentioned from Jamil Z. is a last resort, (it does work for a stuck fermentation but isn't a first choice). Patience...

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Csi - thanks. Down to 1.04 but still really high. I have a starter prepping in case!!! Thanks again

In this hobby, the importance of wife acceptance in invaluable.

CSI said:

Yes. I opened a 017x this past Saturday. It was just under 3 months in the bottle and was already better than any of the imports of the style...but to get it right the numbers have to come in on time.

I like to share our experiments with friends outside of the context of work. Like most of us I have a unique sounding board where my wife has a distinct dislike of anything beerish. Testing this ale with her outside of our company trials is like a chalk board scratch test but it has critic-style value. The best I've gotten over the years is "well, I don't hate it". Her response to the young 017x (10.2% ABV) was "Is this non-alcoholic?", and "This tastes like bread and plums". A day later she mentioned, "I can't stop thinking about that beer". Taste is subjective but in this case other responses have been similar also.

Over the course of 12+ months conditioning, the plum esters mature into more prune/fig flavors and aromas with a faint hint of vanilla.

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Back to share a bit. Way late on a report but at least a return for results eh?

Used Saq's New World twice. I really like the beer, and have never had Wvest-12 - kinda hard to get, but some day I hope to visit St.Sixtus.

Brewed: 3.27.12 - Entered in a very large County Competition about 4 months later (beer still young of course, but I drank the first batch all up before it was fully developed too, and had I made an error on it and was trying to do Saq's recipe correctly - Note I left out a bit of grains on the first run and both tasted very similar still), but wanted to hear a few judges comments. Here they are:

Aroma 8/12
Appearance 3/3
Flavor 15/20
Mouthfeel 4/5
Overall Impression 7/10
Total 37/50

Comments: Beautiful malt profile, plenty of alcohol, lacks Belgian character for a 40+ beer.

I brewed the traditional recipe today, tried it with home-made dark candi sugar but totally missed the SRM, looks more like an amber ale. The 2lb of very dark syrup I made clearly wasn't enough. I'm sure the flavour will be different too but I'm not too worried since I haven't tried the real stuff before anyway. If anyone else is going to try this route I would recommend the darkest one at 300F, I stopped the sugar at 290F. Next time I might invest in some of CSI's products. Thanks for the recipe and information!

I am Kegging mine tonight. I can't wait to try this batch.

chriswilkes33 said:

Yeah true, I think Im gonna do 10 gallons of this this weekend and throw 5 into my barrel. Ill let you know in a few months what I think. I have a couple bottles of 12 I brought back this month to test beside.

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But how did the Oaked Westy turn out?

Lucetius - none of the pictures display for me.

Snicks said:

I brewed the traditional recipe today, tried it with home-made dark candi sugar but totally missed the SRM, looks more like an amber ale. The 2lb of very dark syrup I made clearly wasn't enough. I'm sure the flavour will be different too but I'm not too worried since I haven't tried the real stuff before anyway. If anyone else is going to try this route I would recommend the darkest one at 300F, I stopped the sugar at 290F. Next time I might invest in some of CSI's products. Thanks for the recipe and information!

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I was thinking about making this with the homemade syrup from that post as well. I am a little concerned that the 290F syrup isnt dark enough. I dont care for the 300F syrup because i think it taste burnt. Do you think the burnt flavors would carry over? You said you used 2 pounds of the 290F, what percent of fermentables is that?

jtp137 said:

I was thinking about making this with the homemade syrup from that post as well. I am a little concerned that the 290F syrup isnt dark enough. I dont care for the 300F syrup because i think it taste burnt. Do you think the burnt flavors would carry over? You said you used 2 pounds of the 290F, what percent of fermentables is that?

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You're not going to get the flavors out of the stuff you make on the stove that you get from CSI's stuff. Buy a pack of it and taste the difference. It's way more intense and complex than the homemade stuff.

If you're going to do this recipe, you might as well make the investment and be happy with the end product.

Hey all!

I brewed this bad boy up and finished at11%abv.
I bottled about 2 months ago hoping to age over several years to see how it matures.

The brew tastes amazing but still hasn't carbonated. I think possibly this is due to a very long secondary at about 12 degrees Celsius which led to the yeast dying or completely falling out of suspension.

2 weeks ago I cracked open all of the bottles and added some wlp001 yeast that I was brewing with that day to see if that would eventually get carbonation going. Today still nothing although the beer is hazy now.

I guess my question is if the wlp001 will be able to do the job with a bit more patience or is 11% abv just killing the yeast off?

Any tips on how to get this carbonated would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again, frustrated and thirsty !

I just bottled the 4th run for Winter 2012. In monkish tradition I have a confession to make. This was the season starting Westy 12 clone from back in October and was done intentionally using Belgian Munich rather than Pale in the recipe. Granted it was outside of spec and against BLAM but I couldn't resist trying the variation. It follows everything but the Pale malt. Hit the numbers normally. Has a much more muted malty/bready flavor but with a very pronounced honey palate from the Belgian Munich. It's really very nice. Apologies for breaking tradition on this one. Here's the pic:

You say that like honey is a *bad* thing!!

That beer looks amazing.

CSI said:

I just bottled the 4th run for Winter 2012. In monkish tradition I have a confession to make. This was the season starting Westy 12 clone from back in October and was done intentionally using Belgian Munich rather than Pale in the recipe. Granted it was outside of spec and against BLAM but I couldn't resist trying the variation. It follows everything but the Pale malt. Hit the numbers normally. Has a much more muted malty/bready flavor but with a very pronounced honey palate from the Belgian Munich. It's really very nice. Apologies for breaking tradition on this one. Here's the pic:

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So the Pale Malt was replaced with Belgian Munich?

CSI said:

I just bottled the 4th run for Winter 2012. In monkish tradition I have a confession to make. This was the season starting Westy 12 clone from back in October and was done intentionally using Belgian Munich rather than Pale in the recipe. Granted it was outside of spec and against BLAM but I couldn't resist trying the variation. It follows everything but the Pale malt. Hit the numbers normally. Has a much more muted malty/bready flavor but with a very pronounced honey palate from the Belgian Munich. It's really very nice. Apologies for breaking tradition on this one. Here's the pic:

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Tradition smadition. I've been playing around with the base malt in the old world recipe for quite some time now. Vienna/Pils Vienna/Munich, Pils/Munich. The differences are there but not super noticeable. I'd rather branch out from using W12 as an inspiration rather than make an exact copy. Then tailor it specifically to my personal tastes.

jtp137 said:

I was thinking about making this with the homemade syrup from that post as well. I am a little concerned that the 290F syrup isnt dark enough. I dont care for the 300F syrup because i think it taste burnt. Do you think the burnt flavors would carry over? You said you used 2 pounds of the 290F, what percent of fermentables is that?

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Sorry, when I said 2lb of of syrup I actually meant 2lb of cane sugar that I turned into the syrup that ended up in the fermentor, so the syrup weight would have been a bit more. I don't remember the percent out of the total fermentables but it was similar to the recipe.

As someone else mentioned you might want to just go for the CSI stuff since it gets such great reviews, the only reason I didn't go that route is due to time constraints and painful shipping rates to NL Canada. Next time I definitely will though, and should be able to post a comparison.

7 weeks in, While not officially on TAP it's been on CO2 and chilled for a week. I have it on a "secret" picnic tap inside the kegerator and enjoyed a sample every couple days. Will be a awesome brew within the month.

smokinghole said:

Tradition smadition. I've been playing around with the base malt in the old world recipe for quite some time now. Vienna/Pils Vienna/Munich, Pils/Munich. The differences are there but not super noticeable. I'd rather branch out from using W12 as an inspiration rather than make an exact copy. Then tailor it specifically to my personal tastes.

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Here here...salute!

bkl63 said:

7 weeks in, While not officially on TAP it's been on CO2 and chilled for a week. I have it on a "secret" picnic tap inside the kegerator and enjoyed a sample every couple days. Will be a awesome brew within the month.

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How long are you guys aging this. I find it difficuilt to wait a year before drinking.

jtp137 said:

How long are you guys aging this. I find it difficuilt to wait a year before drinking.

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Don't get emotional or impulsive; you will be richly rewarded. CSI has tested the hell out of this recipe - if he says 12 months, you can believe it.

OTH- you can taste along the way and see for yourself how it ages. The trouble is you may not have any left by the time you see it rise to its full potential.

This is not the kind of brew you do for the first time for a party or event - its more of a Zen thing. Patience and careful observation is required.

Does anyone see any problems in doing a half batch of this? I don't have big boy equipment to handle all the water and grains, so could I just cut the ingredients in half and follow the same procedures?
Also, in doing a half batch I imagine I will be fine in a normal 6 gallon fermenting bucket for primary, because of the high amount of gases produced in initial fermentation, but when I rack to the secondary should I consider putting it in a smaller vessel to reduce the risk of oxidation?

I'm hoping that out of a 30 gallon batch atleast 20 of it makes it to the one year aging anniversary... With a goal of 10 of that making it to 18 months...

jeetaman said:

Does anyone see any problems in doing a half batch of this? I don't have big boy equipment to handle all the water and grains, so could I just cut the ingredients in half and follow the same procedures?
Also, in doing a half batch I imagine I will be fine in a normal 6 gallon fermenting bucket for primary, because of the high amount of gases produced in initial fermentation, but when I rack to the secondary should I consider putting it in a smaller vessel to reduce the risk of oxidation?

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I'd hate to sit on this for that long for only a case.. Why not do a partial mash and sub in some Pilsen DME?

Well it's taken over a month and a half, but I'm finally starting to see some carb in my bottles.

Going to have to start another [double] batch soon...

bottlebomber said:

I'd hate to sit on this for that long for only a case.. Why not do a partial mash and sub in some Pilsen DME?

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I am new to brewing so changing stuff up makes me worry that I will screw something up. If I brew a half batch and sub in additional DME how much should I use? And is there an argument for using DME over LME?

CSI, am I reading something wrong or did you lower the Candi Syrup from 3lbs. to 2lbs?

jeetaman said:

I am new to brewing so changing stuff up makes me worry that I will screw something up. If I brew a half batch and sub in additional DME how much should I use? And is there an argument for using DME over LME?

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I find DME to be better in most ways, more fermentable (critical to this recipe) and not as subject to spoilage. If you used 5 lbs of Pilsen DME it would give you about 1.040. You could then make up the difference with the grain bill that your system will handle. It will be pretty foolproof, if you decide you want to do it I could easily put together a partial mash recipe for you.

Oh man, that would be so awesome! Thank you so much for helping me with this. I have only done 2 LME brews so I think I am a little out of my league trying to jump straight into this beer.

jeetaman said:

Oh man, that would be so awesome! Thank you so much for helping me with this. I have only done 2 LME brews so I think I am a little out of my league trying to jump straight into this beer.

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I don't think it's out of your league if you omit the decoction mash. What is your setup like?

I have a 6 gallon brew pot. 2 - 6 gallon buckets (1 has a spigot for bottling). And a 5 gallon carboy. I was goin to use this recipe as an excuse to get a mash tun.

jeetaman said:

CSI, am I reading something wrong or did you lower the Candi Syrup from 3lbs. to 2lbs?

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Yes, we did. 2lbs D-180 replicates the SRM and flavors acceptably. A lighter syrup could be used to add the adjunct percentile back in if preferred, (Golden, Simplicity). The flavors of D-180 permeated so well even through aging that we gave an adjunct reduction a try and it appears to be working out well.

Later this year we'll also compose a Westy 12 clone with a two stage decoction using only Pils, (we use Dingeman's over Castle). We'll be formulating based on what our taste tests hinted at a change in the original St. Sixtus Westvleteren 12 grain bill. Anyway, we could be wrong about this but a trial will help us prove it out. Since this is a notable variation and with Saq's permission we may open this up to a number of brew partners to test.

Just brewed up a 3.5 gallon new world. Did half the grain bill as minimash and the rest as LME due to limited equipment. Batched sparged by ladling mash out of pot into strainer over second pot. My efficiency was crazy and I still don't really believe the numbers but definitely over 80 percent. Made my own candy syrup.

My question: when does it typically self rise to 80 degrees? Before, during, or after high krausen? My fermenter is in a water bath with an aquarium heater so I'd like to get an idea of when to ramp up the temp as the thing has had a pretty constant temp so far

Thanks

If you have it in water you may not see it rise due to the insulation/heat sink the water is providing.

As I understand it, and as happened with me, day 2-3 is the peak of activity and the temp peak is shortly thereafter... So; day 3. YMMV.

Brewskii said:

If you have it in water you may not see it rise due to the insulation/heat sink the water is providing.

As I understand it, and as happened with me, day 2-3 is the peak of activity and the temp peak is shortly thereafter... So; day 3. YMMV.

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I think after that point you'll want to start ramping her up.

Here may be a dumb question. I have never had a Westy - 12, but is it close to La Trappe - Koningshoeven?