Electrical Primer for Brewers

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If this plug is for a stove or dryer then the third wire is almost certainly a neutral and not a 'proper' ground. Each has 120V components. For safety, you can run another ground when you use the unit.

This is why I say use a meter. Check from the third wire, whether it is neutral or ground, and see if you get voltage. Sinks, wall plugs if they have the third wire, copper plumbing, etc. If you get voltage between the two then you have problems. Chances are you won't see anything. Check from a hot to the test ground to make sure it is in fact grounded. But yes, in a properly wired environment neutral and ground are virtually the same. The earth ground is used to have a common reference. If you are pretty far from the transformer or have some other unusual circumstance, then they may not be the same.

Thank you for the advice and info....I'll post the results when I get home.
 
if it's a dedicated stove circuit, you can probably get away with it. but on a circuit with other receps, don't use the bare ground. should a neutral go bad somewhere else in the circuit, there's a potential to get rapped neutral to ground if there's a load on the circuit and you complete it
 
CodeRage, wanted to thank you for putting this together, it has helped a lot in aiding me in getting my RIMS system close to complete!
 
CodeRage, thanks for the excellent write-up. It pretty much confirms everything I know so far, but I do have a nagging question (input welcome from anyone :)). When I finished my garage/shop, I installed all the electrical. There was already a 100a panel, and I installed receptacles for everything I thought I would need to power all my shop tools, welder, etc: several 20a/120v, 20a/240v, 30a/240v. But since I wasn't planning to brew in the shop (and since my rig was all gas at the time), I didn't install a 50a/240v. Now I'm going to be stuck brewing in the shop for the forseeable future and I have to figure out how to get my (completely redesigned) rig wired. Right now I've planned for an electric 5500w HLT and 1500w/120v RIMS element, but this cold winter has me thinking twice about keeping my LP BK and going electric with it as well.

My original plan was to run a GFCI protected 30a feed to the control panel specifically to run the HLT element and my 240v pump, and a separate GFCI protected 20a/120v feed to run the controls, 120v pump, steam solenoid, and RIMS element. Unfortunately, I'm a bit unclear about how the two circuits would interact wrt inductive fields, current leakage, etc. and maintaining good ground fault protection without false trips. I do have the option to fish in a 50a receptacle if that would be easier/safer, but I already have the GFCI breakers and interconnect cable for separate feeds.

Since I haven't seen this idea come up before I thought I'd throw it out there in case there are potential hazards that we all would benefit from knowing.

Thanks! :mug:
MrH
 
Do you have any slots available in your service breaker? You can have more than 100% of the panel rating in total breakers AS LONG as you have a 100 amp main breaker protecting the whole service.

If it is a matter of running the service to the brewery from the box, put a junction box in the wall above it and run the service in conduit to the brewery location.

Personally, I would prefer a sing 240v 4 wire service instead of using two circuits.

I think I answered your question?

Good luck!
 
Okay, apologies for the stupidity of my question, but... well, I'm not that bright, as many of you are finding out.

I spotted the recommendation in the first page of adding a fuse in building a stand's control panel. That said, in scanning the plans for the Brutus 10 (the direction I'm going) Lonnie's not using any fusing in his diagram, so was wondering is I could get a pointer or ten.

Does each component require it's own fuse? (In the case of the Brutus, 2x 0.25A slow blows for the PIDs, and 2x 2.0A slow blow for the march pumps) If so, I assume they would be individually wired after each component's throw switch, using something like this:
pRS1C-2160165w345.jpg

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062258

Or, would I need to downgrade the amperage coming in at the source?
 
I used a fuse for each component, following CodeRage's amperage recommendations. I prefer these fuse holders:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102782

becuase they simplified the wiring, one less jumper to use (unless the length of the leads + fuse holder are too short to use as your jumpers). Here's my rig with the fuse holders in place. Look at the red wires to see the fuse holders easily:
jrfuda_RIMS.jpg
 
Okay, apologies for the stupidity of my question, but... well, I'm not that bright, as many of you are finding out.

I spotted the recommendation in the first page of adding a fuse in building a stand's control panel. That said, in scanning the plans for the Brutus 10 (the direction I'm going) Lonnie's not using any fusing in his diagram, so was wondering is I could get a pointer or ten.

Does each component require it's own fuse? (In the case of the Brutus, 2x 0.25A slow blows for the PIDs, and 2x 2.0A slow blow for the march pumps) If so, I assume they would be individually wired after each component's throw switch, using something like this:
pRS1C-2160165w345.jpg

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062258

Or, would I need to downgrade the amperage coming in at the source?

Since the PID is an electronic device my guess would be to avoid the slow blow fuse for that.

Quick edit. I'd think the PID had an integrated fuse?
 
Do you have any slots available in your service breaker? You can have more than 100% of the panel rating in total breakers AS LONG as you have a 100 amp main breaker protecting the whole service.

If it is a matter of running the service to the brewery from the box, put a junction box in the wall above it and run the service in conduit to the brewery location.

Personally, I would prefer a sing 240v 4 wire service instead of using two circuits.

I think I answered your question?

Good luck!

Naturally, you gave a perfectly reasonable answer based on the information I gave, which was incomplete :D. My rig is portable, and when I brew I need to roll it about 15' away from my main panel and 240v receptacles. Besides not wanting to try to fish 6ga wire in my brand new finished wall to a new 50a receptacle, I also wasn't looking forward to wrangling 20 feet of 6ga 'extension cord' every time I want to brew, let alone the added cost of buying all that copper. Since I already have over 100' of nice pliable 10/3 and 12/3 stranded cord as well as the required GFCI breakers, I thought I would run separate circuits (cords) to the control panel that is installed on the rig. On brew day I would roll out the rig and plug it in to my protected outlets. My concern is around what that looks like electrically since both circuits would be grounded in the CP. Since they would be fed from separate GFCI's and there's a whole lotta stuff piled in the CP (2 PIDS with room for a third, contactors, switches, SSRs, meters, etc), I'm just wondering if I'm asking for trouble. I'm not overly concerned with electrocution :cross:, but I am concerned about building a reliable CP that doesn't constantly trip one or both GFCI breakers becuase of some inductive interaction I don't understand. Or maybe I'm just overthinking it all. ;)

Thanks-
mh
 
Gotcha, Yeah, You'll be okay. Make sure you keep both services isolated (they should never mix match anyhow!) or your gfci's will go bonkers. Tie both grounds to the chassis as well.
 
That's what I was hoping to hear! In a couple years when I finally build my garage addition/brew shed I'm sure I'll be redesigning the rig again, but this will get me through until then!

Thanks again CodeRage! I'll post a new thread when I get closer to having the CP done.

MrH
 
Not a problem bud. I look forward to seeing it.

So, in a round about way I managed to get a small narrative about control panel buttons and switches.

Here is a general explanation of switches/buttons and contact blocks.

There are 2 Main categories of switches, Push Buttons and Selectors.
Push Buttons
Are exactly what the name implies, you push the button to actuate it.
Push Buttons are divided into 2 main modes of actuation.
Momentary - Push the button down the button turns on, remove your finger and the button returns to off.
Push On/Push Off - Push the button down and it turns on, push it again it turns off.
E-Stops E stops kind of fall into the Push On/Push Off category but their action is a bit different. They still Push On but they either Pull Off, or Twist Off, and some even need a key to turn off. These are designed so when they are pushed they actuate but require a different action to reset or turn off. There are a couple of reasons to explain this but the prime one is the panic reaction. Some one may repeatedly smack an E-stop to shut something down in the case of an emergency. This way the button isn't cycled on and off.
Selector Switches
Selector switches are multi position switches, typically 2 or 3 positions. There are two different main modes of actuation for selectors as well.
Return To - Return to means the switch will return to a standard position when released. Two position switches either Return To Right (RTR) or Return To Left (RTL). Three position switches are usually Return To Center (RTC)
Maintained - A selector switch with a maintain function will stay in the position they were last placed.

Switch Actuation
A panel switch itself does not control electricity, it is a mechanical device. When a push button is in the 'on' position a piece of plastic protrudes from the bottom, when the switch is in the off position it retracts. Two position selector have one mechanical actuator as well. When the switch is in one position the actuator sticks out and retracts in the other position. Three position selectors have two actuators, one for the left hand position, the other for the right hand switch position. When a three position switch is in the center, bother actuators are retracted.

Contact Blocks
The actuators on a switch interact with contact blocks that are attached to the back of the switch with screws. Each contact block has 2 wire terminals, one on each side of the contact. There are 2 types of contacts blocks
Normally Open (NO) - When the actuator is retracted the contact in the block is open, not allowing electricity to flow. When the switch actuator is extended it causes the contact block to close allowing electricity to pass.
Normally Closed (NC) - These work directly opposite of a NO contact. When the actuator is retracted, the contact is closed allowing current to pass. When the actuator extends it causes the contact to open, prohibiting the flow of current.

Contact blocks are stackable! you can screw another contact block on top of another of any variety. The contact blocks have their own spring loaded actuator to pass on the position of the switch actuator below it. This allows for control of multiple circuits using the same switch.

How do you tell if a three position switch is in the center position? Easy! Put two NC contact blocks on both sides of the switch and wire them in series (In one, connect the other side to the other block, and out the second block). When the switch is in the center position both actuators are retracted closing both NC contacts allowing current to pass.
 
Great thread! Gonna be building a box for my pump with all the fancy wiring stuff and this information is incredibly useful!
 
First of all I have to thank CodeRage for this thread and information in some of the other threads floatign around. I am not sur if this is the best thread to ask this question in or not, but I figured it was better here than in a new one. Anyhow I have been trying find unique ways to save some money on my build and I happened to find a few PDUs at work that are no longer being used and I figured I could at least scavenge the cords etc. I am thinking I might want to use the cords for my elements. So it turns out most of them are 30A125v or 20A125v so these aren't going to work for the 4500W 240v Elements. One piece I did find that was 30A240v is a pdu with 2 input cords both wired with L15-30 plugs. These look very similar to the L6-30s but apparently they are three phase. I am not really familiar with how three phase works but I am wondering if I can use these on 240v single phase outlets? Any info on what the diffrence in wiring is and if I can adapt these would really be appreciated.
 
Well the more I look at these the less I think they are going to do the trick. They have 4 conductors which is really one to many for an element. I was really looking for some L6-30s which I think would be perfect. I may have to hold out.
 
Are you planning on using the cable and plugs, or just the cable? Most cable is rated to 600V so the big concern in the amperage. A 4500W element draws 18.75A at 240 so you are still safe from a cable standpoint as long as your run is short. The other concern is the connectors. Generally the current rating of the plug is more important though some connectors are rated for lower currents at higher voltages. You should make sure your connectors are properly rated for your requirements.

If nothing else, it looks like you will have some good quality cable. Keep in mind that it may be a different color code instead of the Black red green, or black white green you are used to.
 
Yeah I was going to try to use the connectors, because 30A connectors aren't cheap. Though neither is wire rated for 30A so I guess if the only thing I was able to salvage was the wire it would be better than nothing.
 
So I am now wondering if I can use a 20A250V L6-20P with 12/3 wire for a 4500w element. Under ideal circumstance the math says 18A but I am sure my house not putting out 240 exactly so is 20A cutting it too close?
 
well, if the cable is in good condition you should be ok, its not like the cable will explode at 20A. It will probably get a little warm, but it wont hurt anything. Plus, if your voltage is low, your going to draw less current. Also, I imagine the element will be the only thing on the line so the little bit of voltage drop you get over the cable shouldnt hurt anything. If this is a long run, you might want a better cable but for 20 or something feet, you will be ok.
 
I am a bit confused with your statement that I would draw less power with lower volts. The way I understand it to determine what the element will draw you divide its wattage by the voltage. So a 4500W element at 240V will draw 18.75A but the same element run at 212V will draw more like 21A. I could be wrong, but that is how I understand it.

I have some 10/3 cables so I may go with them and purchase some L6-30 plugs to replace the L5-30s that are on them. The 20A 240V cables I have are very nice with molded plugs so it would be nice to use them I am just afraid it will be a but more current than I should load them with.
 
Ok I answered my own question in this thread over here. Looks like the element rating goes down at a lower wattage so the draw would be lower too.
 
well, a heating element is a resistive load. You are given a wattage rating at a specified voltage. from here you can determine the resistance of the element. The resistance is a constant, unlike the voltage, and therefore the amperage and wattage.
 
I know a lot of people run 2 hots, a neutral and a ground to their control panels, but then go 2 hots and a ground to their heater elements. Does a GFCI breaker do you any good with a short at the keggle end of things when you are wired this way? My electrician says no, which makes sense to me. Unless you are splitting your power to 240/120 somewhere along the way, is there any reason to run four wires to you control panel and use a GFCI breaker?

[I moved this question to a new thread: Heating Elements and GFCI]
 
OK my turn. Temporary brewery relo into the garage where there is a 3 wire 240 home run to the panel. Can I branch a nearby ground? I have read about why not to borrow a neutral from a separate circuit, but grounds should never be energized except in a "situation". Would this be acceptable? It is 12ga and no more than a couple of feet away. I will need to use the green wire which is home run as the "white" I'll color code it with some fancy electrician tape.
Answer in any tone you'd like - so long as you're correct. :D
Thanks!


PS - I have the portable 240 GFCI cord off ebay; so safe there.
 
If have am supplying 240v to a 5500 watt heating element in my RIMS with 10 AWG wire can I ground the elements "electrical box" enclosure to the keggle wall with 12 AWG or does it have to be the same gauge as the supply? I'm not potting my elements like others, but instead have modified a watertight aluminum electrical box to house the business end of the element.
 
Didnt have much time this afternoon to give a proper answer.
The breaker is rated for a fixed amperage determined by the wire gauge, if the wire were to short to ground, the ground conductor needs to be rated for the same current draw as the breaker. Otherwise, if you had a connection to ground with some resistance, a smaller ground wire could get hot and start to burn and the breaker never trip. It sounds far fetched but I actually watched something of the same principal happen in the field. Freak things do happen ;)
 
Thank you, CodeRage, for all of the important information that you've shared with this community. I have a big concern now that I'm hoping you can help me with. I built a power distribution board from the instructions on this website, for powering three 1500-watt heatsticks:

http://alfter.us/beer/heatstick/powerboard.aspx

I've tested it with a lamp and it seems to work fine. However, there is no breaker or fuse between the 240 volt source and the switches for the GFIC outlets. Is this going to be a hazard?

Thanks very much for your help.
 
Hmm, well no matter how I say this, it's going to sound like a code Nazi. So I'll just state the facts.

Switching from 10Awg to 12 or 14 awg with no current protection is a no no. Consider that is a thirty amp service each one of those wires to the switches going to the gfci could see currents in excess of their rating.

The GFCIs are only rated for 15A as well, I don't know if they are of the type to have a current limiting breaker built in and GFCI or just GFCI. Either way, they could see current exceeding their rating for an extended period of time.

And do not bond neutral to ground as he suggests.

Will it work? Yeah, you have to be mindful of the current you are placing on each load. Is it dangerous? It could be safer.

If I were to build some thing like that, I would get a small distribution panel from the hardware store. Wire the 24V service into it and use 15/20A breakers for each receptacle output/switch combo (provided they are rated for 15 or 20 A). small breakers and panels are cheap.

So instead of bringing that big old SW00 cord into the blue box, you would have a set of wires from each breaker running to a switch and then the gfci.
 
CodeRage - I have 3 5500w heating elements, two of which I'm supplying 30A but only want to supply 20A to the other. Will this element try to use all 20A and output 4800W and if so will it blow the fuse constantly? Perhaps I need to buy a smaller watt element?
 
You'll have to use a 4500W element in place of the 5500W. If you really wanted to get the full 4800W from it you could try to find a 4800W element, I've seen them before.
 
The issue is that I found three hubbel twist locks; two of which are rated for 30a @ 250v and the other rated at 20A @ 250v for a really good price. I had already purchased the 5500w elements. The 20A is in the RIMS so I guess I could make it 120v and still use the same twist-lock plug and receptacle. Any other ideas?
 
You could do that. You'll only get 1400W out of it though. I ran mine like that for a while and wasn't exactly happy with the time it took. It'll get you running though until you can get a new connector or a different element.
 
I'm gonna just get a new element. I want to get a much power as I can out of it. Maybe I'll put the extra element in the boil kettle.
 
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