Using the yeast cake....wow!

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balto charlie

balto charlie

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Well I have been re-pitching yeast from previous batches before but never actually used the same carboy and entire yeast cake until yesterday. Yesterdays batch took off like a bat outta hell. I have never had a batch go like that. It had bubbling in the first few minutes. I thought it might be just a little residual from the previous batch. Well an hour later I had to install a blow-off the prevent a disaster. I have never had a fermentation go this quickly.....ever!! I have to do this more often because it saves time and money...win win!
 
I've always thought about doing that but it seems like I'm always doing something completely different with the carboy when I'm done (e.g. a cider after a stout, a wheat after the cider, etc). I've always thought the taste would suffer by using such different yeast and of course the residual flavors.

Maybe I'll just have to do the same thing twice in a row just to see what happens.
 
Not that there's anything wrong with it, but...

Jamil talked about this on one of his recipe shows and gave a word of caution. Depending on the beer style, fermenting on a yeast cake might not be a good idea. In some beer styles, you want yeast growth to produce esters, etc. for flavor. Fermenting on a cake is like overpitching and will reduce flavor and character in the beer. Just a thought.
 
I have thought about it, but I think washing the yeast will produce a better beer. I think you need to go to a darker beer when pitching on a yeast cake. I thought about trying it on my Pacman yeast cake.
 
menschmaschine said:
Not that there's anything wrong with it, but...

Jamil talked about this on one of his recipe shows and gave a word of caution. Depending on the beer style, fermenting on a yeast cake might not be a good idea. In some beer styles, you want yeast growth to produce esters, etc. for flavor. Fermenting on a cake is like overpitching and will reduce flavor and character in the beer. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

This is what I was wondering about as well. I didn't realize you can over pitch. Sometimes slower is better. It is an impressive thing to watch. I made a brown first then put an IPA onto it. Color is not affected but flavor might be. We'll see. The Brown was normal ferment but not overly strong. It continues to bubble after a few days in secondary. The IPA might be done by the time I get home;)
Since I seek strong hop flavor in the IPA the lack of esther might not be too bad...we'll see. Charlie
 
Hoosierbrewer said:
I have thought about it, but I think washing the yeast will produce a better beer. I think you need to go to a darker beer when pitching on a yeast cake. I thought about trying it on my Pacman yeast cake.
Click to expand...

My IPA onto a brown ale yeast cake doesn't seem to affect the color. I think it might be more important to put a strong flavored beer onto a lightly flavored beer. This is what I did anyway.
 
menschmaschine said:
Not that there's anything wrong with it, but...

Jamil talked about this on one of his recipe shows and gave a word of caution. Depending on the beer style, fermenting on a yeast cake might not be a good idea. In some beer styles, you want yeast growth to produce esters, etc. for flavor. Fermenting on a cake is like overpitching and will reduce flavor and character in the beer. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

I usually dump about 1/2 or 2/3 of the yeast cake out of the carboy and then pitch on to what is left..............problem solved or at least minimized.
 
balto charlie said:
Well I have been re-pitching yeast from previous batches before but never actually used the same carboy and entire yeast cake until yesterday. Yesterdays batch took off like a bat outta hell. I have never had a batch go like that. It had bubbling in the first few minutes. I thought it might be just a little residual from the previous batch. Well an hour later I had to install a blow-off the prevent a disaster. I have never had a fermentation go this quickly.....ever!! I have to do this more often because it saves time and money...win win!
Click to expand...

Check out this month's BYO, great article on pitching rates.
 
I am not familiar with this method of fermenting.

Are you saying that I can prepare my next batch, bottle the beer that is in the carboy, don't clean it out, but just put the new batch on top of the leftover stuff from the previous batch?

So I should also not pitch any yeast into the new batch as it will use the yeast from the previous batch right?

What are the benefits to this other than fermentation starting immediately.

Also about the "blowout" - are you saying it ferments so fast that even with a fermentation lock, it blows that out of the carboy?
 
Slipgate said:
I am not familiar with this method of fermenting.

Are you saying that I can prepare my next batch, bottle the beer that is in the carboy, don't clean it out, but just put the new batch on top of the leftover stuff from the previous batch?

So I should also not pitch any yeast into the new batch as it will use the yeast from the previous batch right?

What are the benefits to this other than fermentation starting immediately.

Also about the "blowout" - are you saying it ferments so fast that even with a fermentation lock, it blows that out of the carboy?
Click to expand...

Yes, you can just add the batch of beer after it cools down right onto the trub at the bottom of the carboy. Do not use more yeast. In fact you can swish the trub/yeast cake in the carboy around, pour some into small sanitized jars, cap them and put into fridge for future use. This way you can reduce the yeast amount in the carboy. I didn't do this last time but have save yeast this way.
Besides fast fermentation you save money. I usually use 1 yeast sample for 3-5 batches.
A blowout starts to push the krausen through the airlock. If this happens put a hose into the stopper and run it into a bucket w/ a little sanitizer in it. I don't know if the blowout happens because the ferment is fast or powerful or both. Maybe a fast ferment is always a powerful ferment You should have seen my beer when it was cranking. It was churning like a beast.
It is best to use yeast from the primary fermenter and take a sip of beer before bottling. This way you ascertain that the yeast is not infected and good to re-use. Charlie
 
In the fall I'm going to make an ale (waiting until fall for some fresh, real, maple syrup) and I think I'll use the yeast cake to make a barley wine. Hard to over pitch with that...
 
Your better off washing it and using the proper amount. Fast start seems cool but it is not ideal, read read and then read more.
 
I remember Jamil saying that if it starts in less than 24 hours you might be doing more harm than good. The yeast are doing good things for your beer in the first 24 hours when they are beginning to wake up and convert things. Sorry I don't remember all the technical details.

Linc
 
You want your ferment to take off as fast as possible. Bacteria multiply MUCH faster than yeast.

Give this a read:

Initially there is a lag phase. This occurs during the first few hours after addition of the yeast. During this time there are no apparent signs of fermentation or growth. The yeast are becoming acclimated to their new environment. If the previous media (or starter) is similar to this new one, acclimation will occur rapidly and the lag phase will be short. If there are major differences in the gravity, temperature, or wort composition, the yeast may be surprised or shocked and it may take some time to adjust to this new environment. Major changes occur within the yeast at this time, they are absorbing all of the oxygen in the wort, using it to synthesize all the enzymes and other metabolic machinery necessary for growth and fermentation, and storing oxygen up in the form of sterols for later use. This stage is critical to fermentation and should occur as rapidly as possible, preferably within a few hours.
Click to expand...
Fresh yeast from a batch is a great way to accomplish this.

Jamil:

Repitching Yeast


If you've brewed more than one batch, I'm sure you've noticed that there is a huge pile of yeast in the fermenter at the end. If (and that is a big 'if') you've got excellent sanitation all the way through the process and have provided proper yeast nutrition (including O2), you have a gold mine of healthy yeast ready to reuse. Of course, you don't want to reuse the whole thing. I know a number of people dump a new batch on top of the yeast cake, but you're not going to get the best beer that way. Yeast do need some growth to result in the right kind of ester profile, etc. While too big a pitch is better than too little, it is pretty easy to figure out how much you need and pitch just that.
There are about 4.5 billion yeast cells in 1 milliliter of yeast solids (solids with no excess liquid). According to Fix, in a slurry, only about 25% of the mass is yeast solids. Of course, if there is a lot of trub in there, you have an even lower percentage of yeast solids. The bad thing is that you can't tell how viable that yeast is, unless you have the equipment to properly test and count it. So this is where it gets a little bit like black magic. There are a number of factors that affect the viability of a given pitch of yeast. How old is the yeast? How stressful was their last fermentation? Have they had the proper environment and nutrients for successful reproduction or are they too scarred and tired to go on?
When the yeast is fresh and healthy off an previous batch, viability is maybe around 90%+. It goes down from there fairly quickly without proper storage and it also really depends on the strain of yeast. Unless you're going to get into testing viability, you're going to need to make some educated guesses and keep good notes on the results. This is where being a yeast psychic really helps. Start in a range of 80 to 90% viability and you probably won't be too far off. Use the Pitching Rate Calculator™ to help figure out how much of that yeast you need. If your yeast viability is much lower than 90%, you should probably toss the yeast. If you really want to use it, you might consider pitching it in some starter wort to get the still viable cells active. When they're in solution, decant that active part of the starter into another vessel, hopefully leaving the dead cells behind.
Click to expand...
 
You're welcome. Just passin' on the good stuff. ;) Both of those links are invaluable resources. Jamil (if anyone's not familiar) is the most award-winningest homebrewer ever, all-around nice guy and smart dood. Dr. Raines-Casselman's reputation preceeds her as well.

Cheers!
 

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