Wort came out more bitter than expected

Last night I brewed a hefeweizen. When I tasted the OG sample, there was a more pronounced bitter note than I expected... not objectionable, but more than I'd expect.

The 5 gal recipe called for a 60 min boil, and these hops:

1 oz Cascade at the boil (60 mins boil time)
1 oz Tettnang at 50 mins (10 mins boil time)

I used Hopunion whole hops, not pellets.

I also had 3.3 lb of liquid yeast malt and 3 lbs of dry wheat malt. Specialty grains were about 1 lb of crystal, and 12 oz Munich, steeped at 150F for 20 mins. (I might have those amounts backwards, going from memory here.)

I used tap water, which is good tasting but pretty soft here. The recipe also called for gypsum at the boil, but I screwed up and forgot to add it til 40 minutes into the boil.

The anticipated IBU from this recipe was 18. I wanted an even less bitter brew than that, maybe around 14 IBU, which is approximately the value for Weihenstephaner hefe. So, I altered the recipe by putting in the Cascade hops at 20 minutes, for a 40 minute boil. The longer hops boil, the more bittering ... right?

(I know that there are ways to calculate IBU contributions, but I was going by the seat of my pants. I'll check Palmer's book and figure out the proper calculations next time, ahead of time.)

So anyway, like I said, the wort tasted more bitter than I expected. It was more on the first taste than the finish, if that matters.

- Does wort taste more bitter than the finished beer? I assume that perceived bitterness would remain the same as yeast don't metabolize those compounds.

- What sort of hops and boil schedule would you recommend for a low bitterness ~ 14 IBU hefe? I'm wondering where I went wrong. I expected a bigger IBU reduction from a 20 minute shorter boil, but my expectations may simply be unreasonable.

This beer will still be good, but I would like to get closer to the mark next time.

Interesting recipe. Was it for an American Wheat?

Good tastebuds - that should be more bitter than a traditional hefe. Usually 1oz of quality noble hops (Hallertau, Tett) is sufficient for a hefe. Most at 45-60mins, and a little at 10-20 mins.

For this one, let it ferment out and taste it again. Wort isn't always a great indicator.

Horseflesh said:

1 oz Cascade at the boil (60 mins boil time)
1 oz Tettnang at 50 mins (10 mins boil time)

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Assuming everything went well with the steeping grains, I'd be interested in knowing the original gravity that you recorded and compare it to the projected IBU's. Also, "1 oz Tettnang at 50 mins" probably should have been boiling for 50 minutes.... hard to tell if you added the parantheses.

I think samples of wort tend to skew the perception of flavors and it changes a lot between the sample and drinking the finished product. It's not going to be drastically more bitter between a few IBUs, I'm sure it's going to be fine.

TyTanium, you are right... it is an "interesting" recipe! My LHBS has a stack of recipes, and I ended up ham-handedly combining aspects of two of them for this batch.

They had a "German" hefe recipe that used German hefe yeast, part liquid and part dry malts, but that also used more hops and came out to nearly 30 IBU. Then, there was an "American" hefe that used American hefe yeast, all liquid malts, 2 kinds of specialty grain, and less hops for a target 18 IBU.

(The labeling made no sense to me as I don't expect a German hefe to be that bitter, but I still have a lot to learn.)

Anyway, while chatting with store staff I decided to use the "German" recipe's malts, because they said that using some dry malt gave the beer a heavier feel, and I like that. I used the "American" recipe's grains, because it added Munich and the "German" was just crystal. I also used the "American" hop schedule as it was listed as a less bitter outcome. Finally, I used a White Labs German hefe yeast because I like the whole hefe babana/clove thing.

Because I mixed up malts and grains the listed anticipated OGs aren't going to match either recipe. However I nailed the liquid volume at 5 gal and arrived at OG 1.055. The original recipes were both also around 1.05x.

iambeer -- the recipe sheet did say Cascade "at the boil" and the Tettnang "at 50 minutes." So yeah, only 10 minutes of Tettnang exposure.

I think the problem here is that I just don't know my hops that well, and was getting hung up on the IBU rating. In retrospect and after a little reading, TyTanium's advice of using just an ounce of noble hops like Tettnang seems like a good idea. This brew didn't need Cascade hops, and they'll just take it farther than what I had in mind.

I am sure that once the yeast do their magic, this will be a good batch, even if it wasn't what I had in mind.

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

Horseflesh said:

iambeer -- the recipe sheet did say Cascade "at the boil" and the Tettnang "at 50 minutes." So yeah, only 10 minutes of Tettnang exposure.

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Sorry if this is redundant but I'm not sure if we are on the same page (otherwise, pls ignore me). "At 50 minutes" in a beer recipe means to be boiled for the remaining 50 minutes. It's a countdown to zero.

I once accidentally doubled the hops in a English Mild recipe, and it did mellow to some degree after a month, and it wasn't bad beer. It actually stood out a little from the 'norm'. But at first it tasted very bitter. Sounds like this one will be fairly unique too once it is full carbed and chilled.

iambeer said:

Sorry if this is redundant but I'm not sure if we are on the same page (otherwise, pls ignore me). "At 50 minutes" in a beer recipe means to be boiled for the remaining 50 minutes. It's a countdown to zero.

I once accidentally doubled the hops in a English Mild recipe, and it did mellow to some degree after a month, and it wasn't bad beer. It actually stood out a little from the 'norm'. But at first it tasted very bitter. Sounds like this one will be fairly unique too once it is full carbed and chilled.

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I am under the understanding that it is just the opposite, 50 minutes would mean 50 minutes into the boil (10 minutes to go on a 60 minute boil)
I have brewed mostly from kits or kit instructions and that is how they are written.

I've made a huge mistake.

Or, maybe not.

I'll check with the LHBS to make sure I am reading their intent correctly!

menerdari said:

I am under the understanding that it is just the opposite, 50 minutes would mean 50 minutes into the boil (10 minutes to go on a 60 minute boil)
I have brewed mostly from kits or kit instructions and that is how they are written.

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That is interesting. It would seem easier to read that way unless you are using a typical kitchen timer which goes backwards.

Convention is that when you say, "the X minute hop addition" you mean, "the hop went into the boil with X minutes remaining". Thus a 10 minute addition would go in with only 10 minutes remaining while a 50 minutes addition would go in with 50 minutes remaining (fwiw, I've never heard of a 50 minute addition, which leads me to believe the OP's recipe had a 10 minute addition - i.e. 50 minutes INTO a 60 minute boil -, especially since it already included a 60 min addition)

The times listed for hop additions refer to how much time is LEFT in the boil. A 50 minute addition means you add it when you have 50 minutes of boil time left. A 10 minute addition means add the hops when you have 10 minutes of boil time left.


Ya, what JLem said. (beat me to it)

JLem said:

(fwiw, I've never heard of a 50 minute addition, which leads me to believe the OP's recipe had a 10 minute addition - i.e. 50 minutes INTO a 60 minute boil -, especially since it already included a 60 min addition)

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I have seen this. It would result in less bitterness in low hopped European beers. This is a hefeweizen recipe. If anything I would assume the rogue customiz0r of this recipe was considering adding cascade for aroma at 10 to 0 minutes. I have not seen a great many recipes with cascade as The bittering hops. Anyway the original document is perhaps lost forever.

Come to think of it, I think the Sierra Nevada PA clone I've been using starts with hops additions at 45 minutes.

menerdari said:

I am under the understanding that it is just the opposite, 50 minutes would mean 50 minutes into the boil (10 minutes to go on a 60 minute boil)
I have brewed mostly from kits or kit instructions and that is how they are written.

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No, that is incorrect. Kit instructions that I have seen do it the way I do it, so I'm not sure which kits you've used that are "backwards".

Say a recipe is written like this:

1 oz 60 minutes
.5 ounce 15 minutes
.5 ounce 1 minute (or flameout)

The first hops go in at 60 minutes, or at the beginning of the boil. When you add the hops, set your timer for 60 minutes. When there is "15 minutes" left on the timer, add the 15 minute hops. (This would be after boiling for 45 minutes). And when there is 1 minute left on your timer, add the 1 minute hops.

I know that seems confusing, but think how it would be if it was reversed! I mean, I do a 90 minute wort boil. So, when do you add 1 minute hops if it's the other way? With 89 minutes left? That would be extra confusing!

Just like when you make a cake from a recipe, there are certain standards in the way a recipe is written, so it is in brewing. Brewing standards are that "XXX minute" hops are always boiled for that length of time. 15 minute additions are boiled for 15 minutes. This avoids confusion.

Yooper said:

No, that is incorrect. Kit instructions that I have seen do it the way I do it, so I'm not sure which kits you've used that are "backwards".

Say a recipe is written like this:

1 oz 60 minutes
.5 ounce 15 minutes
.5 ounce 1 minute (or flameout)

The first hops go in at 60 minutes, or at the beginning of the boil. When you add the hops, set your timer for 60 minutes. When there is "15 minutes" left on the timer, add the 15 minute hops. (This would be after boiling for 45 minutes). And when there is 1 minute left on your timer, add the 1 minute hops.

I know that seems confusing, but think how it would be if it was reversed! I mean, I do a 90 minute wort boil. So, when do you add 1 minute hops if it's the other way? With 89 minutes left? That would be extra confusing!

Just like when you make a cake from a recipe, there are certain standards in the way a recipe is written, so it is in brewing. Brewing standards are that "XXX minute" hops are always boiled for that length of time. 15 minute additions are boiled for 15 minutes. This avoids confusion.

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I realized after I posted, I have read in numerous books and saw in videos. I even scoffed at the kits I have brewed as having it backwards. It is the amount of time left to boil. ( not thinking clearly, maybe because I sampled my porter just now)
The kits I am referring to are Brewers Best, they tell you to add bittering hops and some extract at the beginning but they tell you other additions by how long it has been boiling for the most part, they even put a timetable in a column by the side.
Stuff like this can easily lead someone writing a recipe to have it backwards I would imagine.

To further confuse matters, I checked the recipe printout from my LHBS. This is from an "American-Style Hefeweizen."

In the materials section, they list the hops like this:

1 oz Cascade @ boil
1 oz Tettnanger @ 50 minutes

If you read the detailed step-by-step instructions, they make it very clear that these are elapsed times. "At 50 minutes into the boil, add the Tettnanger hops."

I had no idea that other recipes might not use elapsed times. So, while I have not messed up any cooks (at least not THIS way) I learned something to look out for when I use recipes from other sources.

Horseflesh said:

I had no idea that other recipes might not use elapsed times. So, while I have not messed up any cooks (at least not THIS way) I learned something to look out for when I use recipes from other sources.

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Yep, that's confusing all right! When you see a recipe from a new source, read it over and make sure it's correct. Or, you can post it on the forum and one of us can take a look and see if it makes sense.

There are TONS of bad recipes out there! So it always is a good idea to have another set of eyes (or another 100,000 sets of eyes :cross take a look.

Regarding your initial question, my worts have all tasted far more bitter, or at least more unpleasantly bitter, than the finished products. Usually they're good and hint vaguely at what the beer will end up like, followed by a strong unpleasant sort of bitter aftertaste. This has always gone away.

(On the lightly-bittered batches, the bitterness was not there, IIRC.)

Thanks Zeg. I'll just have to wait and see.

Observing the flavor changes over the first weeks is one of the neatest parts about the whole thing, this just gives me something else to make notes on.

Zeg, I tasted the brew after 12 days and the bitterness faded exactly as you described. I think this will be a good batch.