Judge my recipe, don't go easy on me!

Hey guys, I'm wanting to brew an IPA in a few days and I've finally landed on an AG recipe idea. I'm shooting to have that west coast IPA aroma and flavor minus the punch to your face bitterness (looking for a fairly balanced IPA), tell me anything that you think might help improve it.

5 gallon batch, 1.064 OG 60 IBU

7.30 lbs Maris Otter
1.77 lbs Torrified Wheat
0.80 lbs Honey Malt
0.70 lbs Rye Malt
0.42 oz Summit hops (60 min)
1.00 oz Falconer's Flight (15 min)
1.95 oz Cascade (15 min)
2.95 oz Cascade (2 min)
0.60 lbs Piloncillo (5 min)
White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale Yeast

Plus an additional ounce of Cascade and Falconer's flight for dry hopping.

Looks pretty good to me. You could maybe drop the honey malt a tad. And some would say to swap the yeast for a California ale strain, but that's more personal preference (I like English dry us-04 in my IPAs and APAs). You'll be rounding up all those hop additions to the whole oz?

Make sure you mash in the low 150s if possible to get a more fermentable wort.

Thanks, I've actually never used Honey Malt before but I was a little worried that I might be over doing it, does it add a ton of sweetness even in moderate use? As for the hops, I'm not sure yet lol if I'm feeling lazy then I'll just round up but I've got a fairly accurate scale that lets me be so picky.

I was also planning to mash at like 151 F, hopefully I get a highly fermentable wort from that

I'd switch the yeast. In my opinion, English yeast esters don't go we'll with fruity American hops. I don't see that small of a rye percentage making a difference either. I'd say decide whether you prefer the honey malt or the rye, drop the other, then either keep the honey the same or increase the rye.

Yeah, change the yeast.

Leave the yeast. 007 is awesome in hoppy APAs and IPAs. After all, its what Stone uses and I think they know a few things about IPA.

I agree about the honey malt. I would eliminate it. Using marris otter you will already have a lot of malt character.

Also up the dry hop. I like 4oz in my IPAs.

Babbage78 said:

Thanks, I've actually never used Honey Malt before but I was a little worried that I might be over doing it, does it add a ton of sweetness even in moderate use?

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short answer yes.8oz will give you plenty of malt backbone, north of half a pound will over power hops and dominate the flavor profile.It is however a really good alternitive to crystal as it adds sweetness but not alot of color.

I'd switch out a good chunk of the honey, if not all of it, for rye. I'm partial to Chico strains, but as stated above, Stone does know a thin or two about IPA's.
you're going to get plenty of malt with the Maris Otter, I don't know that I'd go with that much maltiness for a West Coast, but who knows what a WC is anymore anyway!
I say drop the honey, brew it and report back.

Airborneguy said:

I'd switch the yeast. In my opinion, English yeast esters don't go we'll with fruity American hops. I don't see that small of a rye percentage making a difference either. I'd say decide whether you prefer the honey malt or the rye, drop the other, then either keep the honey the same or increase the rye.

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I've heard this as well, but also thought I heard that lagunitas uses a bunch of English yeast. I may be remembering incorrectly though.

Sounds like a great recipe!

I would swap the amounts of wheat and rye. You will get a great miuth feel and a slight pepperyness.

dannypo said:

Leave the yeast. 007 is awesome in hoppy APAs and IPAs. After all, its what Stone uses and I think they know a few things about IPA.

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Stone doesn't use the citrusy/tropical hops like cascade and FF

I think a clean fermenting yeast like a California strain will work better. The ipa already has maltiness with west coast hops, not sure if the added character from an English yeast will lend itself well in this mix

HopOnHops said:

Stone doesn't use the citrusy/tropical hops like cascade and FF

I think a clean fermenting yeast like a California strain will work better. The ipa already has maltiness with west coast hops, not sure if the added character from an English yeast will lend itself well in this mix

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Stone IPA is hopped with Chinook, Columbus and Centennial. Ruination is Columbus and Centennial. Arrogant bastard is rumored to be all Chinook.

All if those are quite citrusy. Yeah there is pine and floral in there as well.

And as said earlier Lagunitas uses WLP002 for all of there beer.

I've used Honey Malt in an IPA before and don't think it works. It wasn't a bad beer, but I only used 4oz and it overpowered everything else. Either cut it back or eliminate it completely.

I didn't know what piloncillo was, so I looked it up. Have you used that in brewing before? Seems like it would be a good substitute for other sugars in other recipes (belgians and whatever).

Sorry for taking a while to get back guys, I've brewed a few very hoppy APAs with the english yeast and actually loved the result, the esters from the yeast, if fermented at lower temps are very subtle and add a nice complexity.

As for the piloncillo I'd also love to hear from someone else who has worked with some, I used some for another IPA i made and it over powered the flavor, but then again I used an entire pound last time. The one thing I am unsure of is that when I used piloncillo the previous time i ended up with an EXTREMELY cloudy beer, even after cold crashing. Can anyone else confirm that this is from the piloncillo? it looks very buttery when melted down.

I like the idea of switching the wheat and rye amounts, the amount of wheat seems almost wasteful now since great mouthfeel could be achieved with half as much but the increase in rye would definitely show some signs.

And for the elephant in the room.... I can't make up my mind just yet but I'm going to either drop the Honey malt to around 4 oz or completely forgo it. Thanks for all the help guys! Keep it coming

I've used it before. It was one of my holiday beers, I believe a squash beer that I made (no pumpkin). It didn't really stand out for me. I tend to believe that most simple sugars just ferment out, leaving very little distinct flavor, if any at all.

When I was out and about earlier, I picked up some piloncillo at a local mexican grocery store. Only $2, so I figured I'd grab some and try to think of something to do with it. They had 2 kinds and I decided to get the darker one. The next batch I'm going to brew is a SMaSH, so I won't use it until at least the batch after that. That is, unless I think of something to cook with it.

I also forgot to mention that the reason why I decided to include the honey malt in the first place was because of the fact that I am using the White Labs Dry English Ale strain which I've read is easily capable of achieving 80% attenuation, which I feared would leave almost no residual sweetness

I'd be concerned about the wheat/cloudiness and for me a big question is to the fermentation temp as to type of yeast( always my concern down here with wide temp fluctuations, up the rye and drop the honey, otter is sweet enough.

regarding the yeast: we all obviously have different preferences and responses to different yeasts. one thing i've done that has really improved my understanding of yeast influence is to split my fermentation across several strains.

i have many repurposed apple juice gallon jugs that work very well for this, and i wash enough american ale/english dry ale/etc that i never run out.

if i did this every batch without reusing yeast, it would get quite expensive.

Babbage78 said:

I'm shooting to have that west coast IPA aroma and flavor minus the punch to your face bitterness (looking for a fairly balanced IPA).

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WCIPA's have a balance of hop aroma/flavor and hop bitterness. They are highly aromatic and all about the hops, not so much the malt sweetness or malt character. Contrary to your belief, despite being high IBU, they are not really harsh bitter bombs. Pliny the Elder case in point.

Therefore, if the goal is a dry WCIPA, the prescribed grist is usually a 2-row base mashed low with some very light crystal (optional) and perhaps a touch of wheat, light munich, or rye, and honey or corn sugar added after the boil during cooling. Piloncillo is richer, and similar to dried molasses... which may be out of place in a WCIPA depending on the amount used.

Nothing wrong with WLP007 for WCIPA's. Lagunitas, Stone, Surly, and many other great IPA breweries use English yeast as their house strain. Just be sure that you're pitching the appropriate amount, at the appropriate temp, for the appropriate amount of time including conditioning.

Again, these beers are ALL about the hops. They typically rely on 9-14 oz. total Pacific Northwest American hops per full volume boil 5 gallon end batch. For 5 gallons of WCIPA, I'd dryhop with 3-4 oz.

did not even notice the piloncillo! i would definitely skip this.

sorry if this is redundant, but your recipe is on the busier side. as some have pointed out, you'll want to pick and choose what you put in - more of one and none of the other rather than some of both, in many cases.

i was pretty guilty of kitchen sink recipe writing when i started. everything sounds so exciting and you just want all of it in there! there is, however, a lot of wisdom in keeping it simple.

take a look at stone's book. most of their recipes in the book, including their pale and a few of their IPAs, are remarkably simple. arrogant bastard is supposedly two types of grain and chinook hops. within that simplicity there is a high degree of precision, but that precision is hard to achieve when you're juggling six or seven balls.

Okay, yeah you're all right lol This is def one of my most busy recipes. After reading all these comments and much thought, I agree that the piloncillo probably doesn't make much sense, I just wanted to try it out but I'll wait til I brew up another pumpkin ale, I think the piloncillo would work perfectly for that. As for the dry hopping would 4 oz really be necessary? I remember reading in several other posts that a lot of people use 2 oz. I've never really dry hopped before so I'm absolutely clueless on this matter, also how long should the beer be dry hopped for?

@Babbage

It depends on the recipe, the original OG, and how juicy/oily you want the hop focus to be...

I usually dryhop with anywhere from 0.50 to 0.75 to 1.00 oz. hops per gallon of beer. Stay at the lower end of the scale for regular aromatic IPAs, in the middle for highly aromatic Double IPAs, and at the higher end for the very high abv, intense perfumey Imperial IPAs.

I've had success dryhopping anywhere from 5-14 days. But I tend to stick with 8-10 days on average.

@bobbrews

Thanks for the info man, that's what I thought from the posts I had read so far. I'll probably up the FF another oz so that it's 1oz cascade and 2oz FF for dry hopping.

babbage, a great way to get more learning out of one batch is to split it up somehow.

dry hop the whole batch with 2oz, and then take half off and dry hop it with 1oz. for the split portion, if scaled, this would be the same as doing a whole batch with 4oz total. the remaining half is bottled without any additional hops. then, you can compare the two versions and see if it adds enough for you to repeat it.

I just transferred this batch from primary to secondary with 2 oz of Falconer's Flight and an oz of Cascade for dry hop. The beer already smells fantastic so I'm hoping that the dry hop takes the aroma over the top. As of now it is at a gravity of 1.013 down from 1.064. I was able to taste the gravity sample and I am extremely happy with the young, luke-warm, uncarbonated version....So I am expecting great things in a week or two. It tastes kind of bready up front but is quickly replaced by citrus and pineapple notes, the bitterness is pretty smooth but has just the right amount of oomph I was looking for. I increased the honey malt last minute to 6 ounces and so far so good, I wouldn't say the beer is sweet but it has a nice balance to the bitterness. Overall, I'm happy with what I saw, smelled, and tasted. I'll be sure to update once its completely ready. Heres a picture of the gravity sample.

What did you think of the breadiness of this beer? I've heard some people say they love it and others say that it clashes with the hops.

If you made this again and wanted to keep the malt backbone, would you stick with MO or use something like Vienna or Munich?

Honestly it was a very light note in terms of breadiness, maybe its because I also used about a pound of rye malt and 1.7 lbs of malted wheat, but in my opinion, I didn't taste any conflicting flavors, if anything it just added another layer of complexity. It's probably too early to say whether or not I'd go MO again but as of now, I really dug what I tasted