Mouthfeel without adjuncts

I just brewed up a stout and really think that it is tasting a little thin in mouthfeel, though tastes great and flavorful. I searched here, google and BYO without finding an answer to a way to fix my problem.

DARK KNIGHT

OG-1.045
FG- 1.012

81% American 2 Row
5.5% Chocolate
5.5% Roasted Barley
4% Black Patent
4% Crystal 90L

Nottingham Yeast

I don't want to add in any malto-dextrin or lactose or anything fun like that. Trying to keep this just to barley and will honestly not use any of the Crystal next time as I don't really taste it in there. I am going to do my next stout with Safale 04 instead so that I can get a little higher FG. I saw that there were some Guiness clones which tossed in some flaked barley (and I could see myself doing that), however if there is a way to make it a little "thicker" on my toungue without the flaked barley, I would be happy.

If this makes sense, I want espresso with the crema, not drip coffee. That sort of thickness. I honestly think though that I am going too low of a FG and that is leading to my "thin" feeling beer.

By the by, are you finding that S-04 finished at a higher FG than US-05? All of my US-05 trials have finished squarely at 3%Plato or 1.012

Add some flaked oats.... mash higher.....?

Carapils? I would mash above 154 first thing. And definitely some oats. Oats are fantastic for a creamy mouthfeel. But then again, I would be upping the Crystal instead of dropping it if I couldn't taste it.

I also had no problem adding some malto-dextrine when my extract brews called for it.

Flaked barley makes up 25% of the normal grist for a dry stout. Without it...you will always lack that creaminess.

My last stout (65% 2 row, 25% flaked barley, 10% roasted barley) I mashed at 159 for only 40 minutes. I also tossed in a 1/2 pound of light chocolate (250 lovibond). It is nice and rich...but still only about a 4.3% beer.

What was your starting and final gravity Biermuncher? What yeast? That is the style that I am looking for pretty much spot on.

It may also help to carb low if you didn't do so.

I would consider malt sugar (malto dextrin). It is simply sugar from malt. It is not something that isn't in beer normally.

Forrest

Use a protein rest, and a thicker, hotter mash. Adjunct grains such as oats, flaked barley or pearled barley can lend body. Also, using a true ale malt base will help a bit. There is nothing wrong with using crystal malts.

dontman said:

Carapils? I would mash above 154 first thing. And definitely some oats. Oats are fantastic for a creamy mouthfeel. But then again, I would be upping the Crystal instead of dropping it if I couldn't taste it.

I also had no problem adding some malto-dextrine when my extract brews called for it.

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+1 I completely agree! If I add 2lbs to a 10lb grain bill it adds a tremendous amount of mouthfeel. Plus, if you're going to do a stout you should most definitely mash closer to 158*

Since you want to stick to barley, flaked barley and dextrin malt will both help. Carapils is one brand of dextrin malt.

Austinhomebrew said:

I would consider malt sugar (malto dextrin). It is simply sugar from malt. It is not something that isn't in beer normally.

Forrest

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malto dextrin can be derived from any starch, and it's usually from rice, potatoes, or corn. is the stuff you sell verifiably from barley?

I thank everyone for their thoughts, and Biermuncher the most for understanding my problem. I am going to brew up another stout soon and this will be the recipe

Dark Knight v2.0

5 gal

75% Maris Otter
5% Roasted Barley
3% Chocolate
2% Black Patent
15% Flaked Barley

This will give me something that I will be able to work with and I will also be using Safale 04.

Again, thanks for all of the thoughts.

For a dry stout, I thought you would want to mash low around 152 for more a more fermentable wort?

I think that is what it calls for in the BYO recipe.

planenut said:

For a dry stout, I thought you would want to mash low around 152 for more a more fermentable wort?

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I'm pretty new at this, but as I understand it, he needs a LESS fermentable wort in order to increase the mouthfeel of the beer.

You understand correctly, coyote, but this shotgun approach isn't really solving anything; the suggestions are all over the map.

So far, we've had the following suggestions:

- Add maltodextrin
- mash hotter
- add flaked barley
- add flaked oats
- mash cooler
- use a less-attenuative yeast
- add more crystal
- add dextrin malt

I'm sure there's more, but I was operating from memory.

Anyway, OP, don't change too many variables. A less-attenuative yeast isn't necessarily going to enhance mouthfeel. You need larger molecules in the mouth to do that, which means increasing dextrins and proteins in the finished beer.

Flaked barley or oats will do that incredibly well. That's why Guinness uses 20% flaked barley in the grist for their classic Stout - it permits them to brew a relatively low-strength beer that ferments fully (dry) and still retain mouthfeel. In fact, all Dry Irish Stout use flaked barley in the grist; that's a hallmark of the style. It's still 'dry', but it's chewy enough from the addition of flaked barley.

Anyway, the shotgun approach - or, if you prefer, throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks - is not a smart method of tweaking a recipe to get what you want. Change one variable at a time. Next time, I suggest increasing the mash temperature. Read up on how beta and alpha amylases interact, and why mash temperature is important. Learn why the modification you're making has an impact.

Who knows? That just might do the trick.

Cheers,

Bob

Bob, I agree with changing the variables one at a time. The flaked barley is the real change, yeast next and so on from there. I actually thought my stout tasted fine, flaked barley aside, and didn't want to add oats. Seems that I will be heading for a more Irish Stout style, while maintaining my own flare. While talking with some brewing buds, they mentioned wheat and rye as well. Not the flavor I'm looking for so I needed another alternative. My favorite stout I just found out is 15% flaked barley, so I'll try that.

Cheers!

The flaked barley suggestions are good ones. You could certainly see in increase in body with the same recipe by simply increasing mash temp as well.

NQ3X makes a great point. Everyone has different ideas. Use them all if you want, just don't use them all at once.

I mash at 156 now and with the flaked barley should get a creamy beer. I don't want sweet though and the last time I mashed higher it came out almost sweet using US-05. I will brew this next weekend and in three weeks let you know if it worked for me or not

Flaked barley is an adjunct.

haven't all the answers been adjuncts then?

Carapils is malted.

I'd also consider a protein rest, especially with using unmalted barley. I'm beginning to think more and more that protein level is being neglected in discussions of body. I've been using a 20 min protein rest for my lagers and I think these will have more body when they are done compared to last years with only a 5 min protein rest. I can tell you already that it looks like they definitely will have more foam and better head stability based on what I saw going into the fermentor and during fermentation. I'm going to try it on some upcoming ales too.

Another thing as others mentioned is yeast strain. We went to a brewpub we'd never been to a couple months ago and while the beers were fine, they weren't to my wife's liking - to dry. We found out they used the White labs Dry English yeast (007) for all of their beers. I won't be using that strain anytime soon.

pjj2ba said:

We found out they used the White labs Dry English yeast (007) for all of their beers.

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That's funny, because Real Ale Brewing Company uses "a yeast similar to 007" and their beers have outrageous amounts of body, the kind where you can feel those tongue-coating dextrins just by watching the beer pour with that viscous gloss.

I would suggest then that the brewer at the Real Ale Brewing Co. is doing a better job of designing their recipes/process to achieve more body with this yeast. We took a tour of the brew pub and the brewer was "complaining" a little in that he felt he could only use one yeast strain as they used open fermenters, all in one room, and he was concerend about cross contamination. He seemed a little too willing to just give in, so maybe that filters down to the recipes, mash process, etc. The beers weren't bad, just a bit dry (not the same as thin tasting)