Coopers Lager...problems

I brewed a batch a couple weeks ago (needed a cheap brew for my 5 tap kegerator) and it tastes terrible. Undrinkable terrible... (Primary for 1 week, secondary for 1 week, day four in keg)

It tasted terrible when I tried the hydrometer sample when I trasferred from primary, but it was really yellow, almost lemonade looking at the time...very bitter and dry. It cleared up in secondary using gelatin and looked fantastic (sample from hydro before transfer to keg almost tasted good)

Now it is back to the taste from primary, and I can barely hold down a sip, let alone a whole pint. It is very bitter and dry, with a horrible aftertaste. Should I just dump it and spend a little more and brew a decent beer? or is this going to get better with age?


---It had a weird fermentation faze. No movement in the stopper for two days, although the bucket had a good 3" of foam in it. I removed the stopper and put it back in, the air bubble was immediately blasting through the stopper...this then went on for several days.---


Ugh...it has been 30 minutes and I still have the taste in my mouth from one sip...

Hmm.

Some questions:

• Did you use the yeast that comes with the kit?
• What was your fermentation temperature?
• Did you follow the instructions from Coopers? If not, what did you do differently? (For instance, they specify adding table sugar. I use dried malt extract instead.)
• What was the OG and FG?

I have a batch made from the same type kit. It's in secondary, and has been for quite some time. (So far quite tasty.) The dry yeast that comes with the kit is supposed to be a lager-type yeast, so if you've fermented it like an ale (it looks like that from your one week phases), that might produce off-flavours.

I pitched a Coopers Bitter kit onto the yeast cake from my Lager, and fermented it at ale temp. That made for very estery beer -- it's literally going bananas.

This doesn't sound like the dry and bitter taste you describe, though. I wonder -- is it a "not enough maltiness to balance the hops" dryness, or is it astringency (often compared to sucking on a teabag)?

Normally, I'd recommend using gelatin to reduce the bitterness, but you did that already. Set it aside at room temp. for three weeks, then try it. Lager or ale, it's WAY too young for drinking.

Regicider said:

Hmm.

Some questions:

• Did you use the yeast that comes with the kit?
• What was your fermentation temperature?
• Did you follow the instructions from Coopers? If not, what did you do differently? (For instance, they specify adding table sugar. I use dried malt extract instead.)
• What was the OG and FG?

I have a batch made from the same type kit. It's in secondary, and has been for quite some time. (So far quite tasty.) The dry yeast that comes with the kit is supposed to be a lager-type yeast, so if you've fermented it like an ale (it looks -like that from your one week phases), that might produce off-flavours.

I pitched a Coopers Bitter kit onto the yeast cake from my Lager, and fermented it at ale temp. That made for very estery beer -- it's literally going bananas.

This doesn't sound like the dry and bitter taste you describe, though. I wonder -- is it a "not enough maltiness to balance the hops" dryness, or is it astringency (often compared to sucking on a teabag)?

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- Yes I used the dry yeast
- Temp was low 60's
- Yes I used table sugar (per instructions)
- OG 1.042, FG 1.006

Definately astringency (BINGO! I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to describe the taste...sucking on a teabag is exactly right)

Is there any way to "fix" this? I am not against dumping it (as it was for my non-"dark" beer drinking friends) but I am having a poker party friday night and was hoping to have a 4th beer on tap. I guess I could always go grab a couple cases of coors light and fill the keg with it

From what I read on an Aussie discussion forum, the Coopers Lager kit comes with an ale yeast. That does make sense, since the kit says to ferment at or just under room temps.

I have made this kit with the supplied yeast, and it did produce the fruitiness of an ale yeast.

I brewed one of these kits when I started out and it started tasting good after 3 or 4 weeks in the bottle... Time will sort it out, trust me.

I've never seen a Cooper's lager yeast. They have a generic "brewing yeast" that usually ferments fast as hell, and makes very good beers. You won't get the classic clean zip of a lager yeast, but you won't get awful tasting stuff either. My guess is that the table sugar got you down, and possibly you infected your beer with some bacteria or other to boot.
Try DME next time, and you'll make really decent beer. Those Coopers kits are just fine, quality wise. If you use DME and dextrose 50/50 and get an OG over 1.040 you'll be happy.

Sasquatch said:

I've never seen a Cooper's lager yeast. They have a generic "brewing yeast" that usually ferments fast as hell,

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You sure got the fast part right! Monday evening I pitched a packet of their dry yeast on a Coopers Draught kit (with a kilo of DME) at 70 degrees F., and that sucker was finished this morning. Less than 48 hours. I couldn't believe it, so I did some searching here. I hope it's true that these fast ferments produce the best beer.

Lizard, that draught is known in this house as the draught of living death. It's awesome.

We've seen Cooper's dry yeast go from pitched to 99% finished in 32 hours. It's crazy, nuclear-mean stuff.

Sasquatch said:

Lizard, that draught is known in this house as the draught of living death. It's awesome.

We've seen Cooper's dry yeast go from pitched to 99% finished in 32 hours. It's crazy, nuclear-mean stuff.

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That's comforting! Thanks. I used extra light DME and only did a 15 minute boil, because the extract is already hopped. I did toss in a 1/2 oz of Northern Brewer pellets, for the last ten for some aroma. The brew isn't as light in color as I expected from a Draught, but it sure is a nice copper color.

Do you do 5 or 6 gallon batches? I did 5. Does yours turn out copper, too?

I can't imagine evern needing a starter using this yeast!

I do 6 US Gal... which is 23 liters... my usual "recipe" with a cooper's kit is to boil up about 750 grams of light dme and somewhere around 750 of corn sugar (you can tell I'm really precise, huh?) for 23 L. That's 50% more than the manufacturer recomends, but hell, you can't get a decent og on just a kilo of dextose and 23 l of water with those cans. Anyhow, they make great beer, and the Australian Draught is a killer. It looks pretty dark in carboy, but it'll sparkle yellow in the glass, never you fear.

Actually, you should fear. Once you get into that stuff, you won't get back out till it's gone. Then you'll cry.

Your extra hops won't be out of place... the kits are pretty mild. That's gonna be a wicked beer a month from now.

Sasquatch said:

I've never seen a Cooper's lager yeast. They have a generic "brewing yeast" that usually ferments fast as hell, and makes very good beers. You won't get the classic clean zip of a lager yeast, but you won't get awful tasting stuff either. My guess is that the table sugar got you down, and possibly you infected your beer with some bacteria or other to boot.
Try DME next time, and you'll make really decent beer. Those Coopers kits are just fine, quality wise. If you use DME and dextrose 50/50 and get an OG over 1.040 you'll be happy.

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Yes, exactly my thoughts. I have never seen a Cooper's Lager Yeast and I have yet to try their Pilsner and from what I read on this site, it might not be that good. I'll bet dollars to donuts, it too comes with Cooper's generic ale yeast. As many do and it's not just Cooper's doing this. Many companies include a generic Ale yeast for Pilsner and Lager can kits. Cooper's is a good yeast though, as someone else mentioned in here (near nuclear in it's speed and fermentation strength, lol) and it is indeed. Their ale yeast is very hardy and strong. Unstoppable really. It has never once failed me, even when pitched at a higher temp than it should be. I hope it makes a half decent Cooper's Lager though, but it will take time, no doubt about it, from what I have read of this Cooper's Lager. It has to sit and condition for weeks and then sit in the fridge for a week. Seems the longer this Lager sits conditioning in bottles, the better it gets.

Not the first time I have experienced that, lol. This person is judging at after 2 weeks and 4 days from start of fermentation. Not nearly long enough. The beer is still "green", for sure. Of course it is going to taste bitter and crappy. It needs time to smooth out more. That or it somehow got contaminated. As you said, could be a possibility. Maybe it got oxidized in the secondary too? That's a thing too and can create horrible beer and it's why I don't risk secondary with these kits. They are meant to go straight into bottles and work fine that way. Secondaries are overrated and increase you risk of failure. All the rage about secondaries was years ago and some people just don't bother anymore. Could be anything really, right?

I tried brewing a Pilsner from another company, Brew Canada (can kit) that came with Nottingham yeast. Although it was a slightly odd ferment and seemingly slower development of taste and carbonation, unlike that nuclear powered Cooper's stuff, lol, it turned out a very nice fruity and hoppy Pilsner (You could actually see the hop residue at the bottom of the can, cause they dry hop it before canning it, for extra hoppiness). It was a slow to carbonate beer too. Way slower than say a Cooper's or regular Danstar Ale yeasts. Barely any carbonation after 2 weeks and I did it properly. Then after 3 weeks, practically bottle bombs that opened with a nice strong sound. Very carbonated. That one certainly needed time, but I suspect it was a more suitable Ale yeast for a Pilsner too. Not like Cooper's Ale yeast which they seem to include for everything Cooper's and Mr. Beer. I see other companies doing it, including that Brew Canada Pilsner too with Notty Ale yeast. Makes for a more "pseudo" Lager or "pseudo" Pilsner and takes longer to develop nicer flavours, for sure, but it works, with time.

I was critical of the Notty yeast up to that point, but not now. It was indeed still too green. Fantastic beer that was, after longer though. It is just slower at doing it's job and takes time in a Pilsner, but it obviously worked and the taste was awesome. That is one of the best batches I have yet to brew (done about 10-11 can kits now). Some people use Notty as their house brew yeast, so it can't be that bad and it isn't. I just misjudged it's time requirements. It's just not nuclear fast, like Cooper's, at first. So maybe Cooper's yeast for this kit, just needs more time, is all? Notty was like that, slow in the Pilsner but it does it's job, over time and I suspect it was a more "suitable" yeast for brewing a Pilsner. Pilsners just take longer by nature, as do Lagers and lower temperatures. I hope the Cooper's Lager I just brewed for the first time (my first Lager as well), turns out o.k. with their "likely" generic Cooper's Ale yeast. I think it will just need more time to smooth itself out than others. The reviews indicate that is the case with this Cooper's Lager, give it lots (like a month in bottles) of time and don't judge it before that.

Like you said use "malt" sugar though too. The difference DME makes to a can kit is pretty incredible. Better body, better head retention and fuller, smoother flavour. I use at least half DME sugar (so at least 1 pound) for the extra sugar needed for can kits (which is 2 pounds or 1 kilo) and it makes a big difference.

Sorry if I got off topic there a bit, but I found your comment very interesting and true.

Sasquatch said:

Lizard, that draught is known in this house as the draught of living death. It's awesome.

We've seen Cooper's dry yeast go from pitched to 99% finished in 32 hours. It's crazy, nuclear-mean stuff.

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Lol. Cooper's yeast is crazy nuclear-mean stuff. It is a hardy and fast acting yeast. I've pitched it even at too high of a temp. (should have checked the mix beforehand, but lost my brewing thermometer.) and it still fermented like crazy with no off flavours whatsoever. That was even before I started using Wyeast Beer nutrient to help the yeast, which really rocks fermentation. I have even used Maple syrup and pure honey, some cherries and other things and Cooper's tears through literally anything you throw at it, it seems, right out of the package, with no additives. Even all straight table sugar (how I started brewing) and no DME or inverting the table sugar (which I do now).

Nothing stops that stuff, it seems. It's literally indestructible, nuclear powerful yeast, lol. Never failed me once. As long as you are sanitary, it performs and has never made a bad beer for me yet. Any bad beer from Cooper's or Mr. Beer was the kit's fault, not Cooper's ale yeast.

That Danstar generic Ale yeast is about the next most powerful or as powerful as Cooper's yeast, that I see with some can kits of other brands. The regular or generic Danstar Ale stuff can be crazy like Cooper's too. Lol. I find Danstar's Nottingham yeast to be slower at developing flavour, but is a nice yeast as well, in the end. It brings out nice flavours, as people have said about Notty. Just takes longer it seems and had me fooled with it's slightly slower behaviour. I was too spoiled by Cooper's strong and near nuclear action, hehehe. It is a great yeast Cooper's have, no question and so does Danstar.

mysterio said:

I brewed one of these kits when I started out and it started tasting good after 3 or 4 weeks in the bottle... Time will sort it out, trust me.

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Time will indeed sort it out. Very correct and experience has taught me this. I got fooled by a Pilsner kit like that once. It included Nottingham yeast, by Danstar and although it was not a crazy developer like Cooper's, it did work beautifully, it just took a lot longer than Cooper's or Danstar's regular Ale yeast, while in bottle, to bring out the really nice flavours and carbonation.

After 3-4 weeks in bottles though, that Pilsner with the Notty really matured and was well carbonated (unlike after 2 weeks in bottles and very weak to non-existent carbonation) and one of the smoothest and nicest beers I have made to date. Just took a bit longer than I expected to really "develop" and ended with a stunning flavour. That was my first and so far only attempt at a "pseudo" Pilsner so far and my doubts about Notty, are gone and I really like Danstar's yeasts as well as Cooper's.

I would say that judging this Cooper's Lager after only 1 week in ferment and 1 week in secondary and 4 days in a keg, like this person said they did, is far too young to judge it. It also could have oxidized in the secondary or got contaminated and it has resulted in off flavours. Secondaries can do that. I think it is just too green, which is what it sounds like. It is not going to taste right at all for that short duration. Minimum 2-3 weeks in bottles, before any judgement. Preferably 3-4 weeks or more, in bottles or more and then a week in the fridge. I read reviews on the Cooper's Lager and saw a Youtube vid and it does take a lot longer to smooth itself out. Their's is exactly like that Pilsner I brewed once from that other company with the Notty included, it will surely take more time, as a Pilsner or Lager should, cause any review I have seen of this Cooper's Lager has said it gets better with age and "only" after aging for many weeks. As much as 6 weeks in bottles, sometimes, but minimum 4. It is quite bitter and funny tasting and green, before that. I am brewing Cooper's Lager now for the first time and I will leave it for a while, before judging it. I have discovered though experimentation and people's suggestions that aging beer properly, is everything, in terms of taste and drinkability.

They need a long time to smooth themselves out better. Longer than the stupid instructions say, for sure. Lol. I guess that's what happens when you judge too early. Lol. I suspect this is the issue with the Cooper's Pilsner too, which people have complained about too. Cooper's throwing their generic Ale yeast at everything and essentially you are brewing a "pseudo" Lager or Pilsner. That's the theory anyway and people on this site have said as much and I believe them.

I think the other brand of can kit (Brew Canada's Pilsner) that I did with the Nottingham yeast included, was a more "suitable" yeast for a Pilsner, perhaps or maybe even Lager, (even if it is an Ale yeast) people say Notty brings out nice flavours, in the end. I have to agree, just gotta leave it do it's thing for longer. Maybe this is the same with Cooper's when you throw their "likely" generic Ale yeast, at a Lager or Pilsner? If that is indeed what Cooper's is doing and many others do too.

Most brands of can kits include an Ale yeast, which maybe not right, but it will lead to the most speedy and powerful yeast success rate at a wider range of temps. etc., even if not "ideal" for a Pilsner or Lager. I guess the can kit companies use it for it's hardiness and crazy action and flexibility cause Cooper's Ale yeast is crazy powerful stuff. Never failed me once. I was critical of Notty at first because of how slow it developed, at first, but as time went on, it turned out fantastic tasting and very smooth in the end. Yet, earlier on, it was not good and barely carbonated at all. After longer though, the Pilsner with the Notty, really hit it's stride and truly developed in flavour and carbonation. I could not agree more with your comment. Time should sort it all out. This was an important lesson I had to learn. No more judging green beer. Hahahaha! Let her go. She will get better with time and only time.