Water Testing Equipment

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Netflyer

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
776
Reaction score
9
Location
Near Benedict Maryland
Well, now I've followed Bobby M's advice and I've sent my water out for testing. So, I'm thinking, how cool is this, I'll be able to change my water to fit the style of beer I'll be making... cool but: how will I know if my small salt additions will get me to my target? Is close good enough? So, with this thinking I realized, duh, I'm in the swimming pool industry (IT for a large distributor) and we sell LaMotte products - www.lamotte.com ...
If you go to their page check out the beverage link and you can see they sell this wicked computer thing that sucks in a sample of beer and can tell you everything from color to alcohol % way more than I wanted to test but wow.. another dream to have along with conicals etc etc... and I was just interested in minerals...

I called them and they put together a package for me that could measure everything except Sodium ions. I was bummed about that but it seems if you knew everything else you could come close to estimating the sodium.. anyhow the point is I could test my changes and see if I hit the mark.

The kicker: I would have to pay $300 bucks to be able to do 50 tests! Seems like a lot to pay but I suppose if you could test 25 batches, assuming you ran 2 tests while you adjusted the water it would cost 12 bucks a batch ;p .. So that seems a bit expensive :) On the other hand, I just sent 16.50 away to test my water. A brew club could buy the kit and be able to test 50 water samples for 6 bucks each. Certainly if anyone is interested let me know but I realize this is expensive... (edit - I now realized that this price includes the pH tester so subtract 85 for just the water tests - so 215 for 50 tests...)

Sigh... well so the next thing I checked into was a pocket pH tester. This thing will give you a pH reading down to the 100th and ranges from 0 to 14. It remembers the last 14 readings.. The only thing is you have to be under 150F for accurate pH. It also measure temp up to 190F. I guess you could grab some mash, put it in a saucer and cool it down a bit and then pH it...

Anyhow if anyone thinks they might want a very accurate handheld pH meter I can get you one for $85 plus UPS... The LaMotte pH Tracer.

Specs:
Display Multifunction LCD with Bar graph
Operating Conditions 32 to 122°F (0 to 50°C) and < 80% RH
pH Range & Accuracy 0.01 to 14.00/±0.01 pH typical
Temperature Comp. Automatic from 32 to 194°F (0 to 90°C)
Temperature Range 23 to 194°F (&#8211;5 to 90°C)
Temperature Resolution 0.1° up to 99.9 the 1° thereafter
Temperature Accuracy ±1.8°F/1°C [from 23 to 122°F (&#8211;5 to 50°C)]
±5.4°F/3°C [from 122 to 194°F (50 to 90°C)]
Measurement storage 15 tagged (numbered) readings
Power Four CR2032 button batteries (see Page 6)
Low battery indication &#8216;BAT&#8217; appears on the LCD
Auto power off After 10 minutes of inactivity
Dimensions 1.4 x 6.8 x 1.6&#8221; (35.6 x 172.7 x 40.6 mm),
3.85 oz (110g)
 
I am intrigued by the test equipment that you referenced, so I did so more looking online. The folks at Hach have a spectrometer as well; model DR-500, which can be programmed for testing homebrew; but has a $7k price tag. The LaMott's system is cheaper at $1000, but does not mention a beer testing program.

So it looks like someone would need to program the Lamott's system to do the different measurements and then post the programs somewhere out homebrewers could get to it.

So I like the fact that the testing equipment is getting cheaper, but I am going to wait a while longer till it gets down to the price of an i-Pod, so can get one without getting into trouble.
 
Well, actually - I'm getting a free sample from LaMotte today of the 'kit' which tests everything but Sodium. I still think that knowing everthing else and a bit of basic chemistry you can come very close to estimating the sodium but that's for another discussion.

The entire kit w/out the pH meter would cost about $200. So you could do 50 water tests for 200. At 4 bucks a test it beats sending stuff to Kansas for 16.50... And like I said once you know your water and you tweak it how in the world do you know if you've hit your target w/out being able to test it?

Yes, LaMotte doesn't have a 'beer kit' per se... but I'm a very large customer of theirs in the swimming pool industry and they want to design one for me to sell. When I get it I'll take pics and post the specs here so everyone can see what it can do. I'm going to sit down with their chemist over the next few months and see what I can come up with for Sodium. (they have a sodium test but it is part of a much more elaborate expensive test kit and they don't sell it as a single test) They want to put this beer kit in a box and I will private label it something like 'Russ's Brew H20 Test Kit'...

I mean at 4 bucks a test even if a home brewer didn't want to buy the kit, his local HBS should have it. If you could go into your home brew store and test all your relevant minerals for even $6 (they gotta make a profit :) ) it would still save you $10 bucks and postage.
 
This is a really interesting possibility. Will you tell us what the precision, accuracy and repeatability are for the water tester? Also does it need calibration frequently or is it stable once calibrated? Does it need a big sample or a little one? Could one test beer for minerals with it, or is it only for water? Exactly what ions are covered by your comment, "everything but sodium"? It sounds like the testing is done with solutions and a colorimeter of some sort, otherwise why would one only get 50 tests per kit?

Sorry about so many questions, but I am very interested in learning more about this.
 
This is a really interesting possibility. Will you tell us what the precision, accuracy and repeatability are for the water tester? Also does it need calibration frequently or is it stable once calibrated? Does it need a big sample or a little one? Could one test beer for minerals with it, or is it only for water? Exactly what ions are covered by your comment, "everything but sodium"? It sounds like the testing is done with solutions and a colorimeter of some sort, otherwise why would one only get 50 tests per kit?

Sorry about so many questions, but I am very interested in learning more about this.

No worries about the questions. I have received all of my sample test kits from LaMotte. They are as follows:

Chloride
Sulfate (SO4)
Hardness tests which when performed gives me Ca, Mg and CaCo3

So Cl, SO4, Ca, Mg, and Total Alk as CaCo3 - everything for TH's spreadsheet - EZ Water Adjustment spreadsheet except Na...

How accurate, well these are commercial/professional Agriculture kits used by inspectors and labs. They are titration based kits in that you mix a reagent in a very small tube (like 2mls) and then fill a titrator (which in this case is a small syringe with ppm markings on it) with your sample (again very small about 1ml)... You then begin adding your sample to the titration tube and when you get a color change you look at the plunger in the syringe and get a direct reading on the compound/ion you are testing. The accuracy is w/in 2ppm... No calibration on any of these mineral tests is required, just titrations with included reagents. These reagents run out so that is the limit on the amount of tests.

Now as for the pH meter which I already posted the specs, that puppy is amazing, you calibrate it, they give you dpd tabs whereby you use them and distilled water to make up a calibration solution nearest your desired range. You calibrate and then you're off to the races. You can test the pH of any part of the process, your water, the wort, etc... just make sure you get the temp w/in range of the unit. No limit to the amount of tests and you can save your last 15 tests if you want. It displays to the 100th place, so pH 5.xx and I listed the specs in a post below.

As I unpack this stuff I see they sent me a separate Alkalinity test kit BUT the Hardness kit gives me CaCO3 also so I think it is redundant. This means the price goes down.

I'm hoping to brew this weekend and I will blog it and try to take pics and even copy the instructions in a thread here so show the procedure's and stuff... The sulfate test kit I received had a broken test tube in it so this test will depend on whether they can get me a new tube by the weekend... but the others I will try out.

I rec'd my report back from Ward so the first thing I will test is how close my LaMotte tests get me to the Ward tests. That should answer the reliablitiy question and I will repeat the tests and that will test the repeatability question but as I already mentioned these are commercial test kits and I'm sure they are worthy. All said it needs to be mentioned that all kits with any liquid reagents have possible expiration dates on the reagents. I'll find out from LaMotte what the shelf life on the kit is also...

Stay posted!
 
Sodium analysis is usually done by ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma) or AAS (Atomic Absorbtion Spectroscopy)- not within reach of the homebrewer. Much less pricey, but still not what most would be willing to invest in, is a sodium ISE (Ion Specific Electrode). This is very much like a pH electrode (sodium is an interference for pH at measurement in very alkaline solutions). In use it is connected to a pH meter which has millivolt input and, as with the pH function, calibrated with 2 standards whose sodium concentration should span the expected sodium concentration of the sample. The main problem with them is that they take forever to come to equilibrium at low sodium levels and the meters have no ATC for this function so one has to control temperature of both standards and sample.
 
I rec'd my report back from Ward so the first thing I will test is how close my LaMotte tests get me to the Ward tests.


Depending on how long it has been since you sent the sample to Ward's, your water may have changed. I went to my local water supplier's web site and plotted out the monthly reports for the last 45 months (since January, 2007) and found a lot of variation in some of the minerals.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/plots-my-water-profile-last-45-months-205479/
 
No worries about the questions. I have received all of my sample test kits from LaMotte. They are as follows:

Chloride
Sulfate (SO4)
Hardness tests which when performed gives me Ca, Mg and CaCo3

So Cl, SO4, Ca, Mg, and Total Alk as CaCo3 - everything for TH's spreadsheet - EZ Water Adjustment spreadsheet except Na...

How accurate, well these are commercial/professional Agriculture kits used by inspectors and labs. They are titration based kits in that you mix a reagent in a very small tube (like 2mls) and then fill a titrator (which in this case is a small syringe with ppm markings on it) with your sample (again very small about 1ml)... You then begin adding your sample to the titration tube and when you get a color change you look at the plunger in the syringe and get a direct reading on the compound/ion you are testing. The accuracy is w/in 2ppm... No calibration on any of these mineral tests is required, just titrations with included reagents. These reagents run out so that is the limit on the amount of tests.

Now as for the pH meter which I already posted the specs, that puppy is amazing, you calibrate it, they give you dpd tabs whereby you use them and distilled water to make up a calibration solution nearest your desired range. You calibrate and then you're off to the races. You can test the pH of any part of the process, your water, the wort, etc... just make sure you get the temp w/in range of the unit. No limit to the amount of tests and you can save your last 15 tests if you want. It displays to the 100th place, so pH 5.xx and I listed the specs in a post below.

As I unpack this stuff I see they sent me a separate Alkalinity test kit BUT the Hardness kit gives me CaCO3 also so I think it is redundant. This means the price goes down.

I'm hoping to brew this weekend and I will blog it and try to take pics and even copy the instructions in a thread here so show the procedure's and stuff... The sulfate test kit I received had a broken test tube in it so this test will depend on whether they can get me a new tube by the weekend... but the others I will try out.

I rec'd my report back from Ward so the first thing I will test is how close my LaMotte tests get me to the Ward tests. That should answer the reliablitiy question and I will repeat the tests and that will test the repeatability question but as I already mentioned these are commercial test kits and I'm sure they are worthy. All said it needs to be mentioned that all kits with any liquid reagents have possible expiration dates on the reagents. I'll find out from LaMotte what the shelf life on the kit is also...

Stay posted!


Any further information on this testing? I'd still like to test my own water.
 
There are lots of ways to skin this cat. I'd suggest starting out with hardness and alkalinity tests as these are both done with simple titrations and there are lots of kits made by several manufacturers which implement them. I'm particularly impressed with the Hach Digital Titrator as it permits accurate determinations for waters of various ion content. The titrator is a device into which a cartridge of titrant of strength chosen for the water is placed. The cartridge is a syringe without needle or plunger handle. The needle is replaced by a dip tube and the plunger is driven by a threaded rod connected to a counter. The sample and indicator are placed in a flask, the counter zeroed and the dip tube placed in the sample. A knurled knob turns the screw moving the plunger and dispensing titrant. When the end point is reached the number of digits on the counter is proportional to the amount of ion being tested for or some integer multiple. The titrator is a bit over $100 (IIRC) but that is spread over alkalinity, magnesium hardness, and calcium hardness and the device will also do other tests. Chloride comes to mind and chloride is probably the next thing to check for. Sulfate would probably be next. Unfortunately, accurate determination of sulfate is a little tricky as the test depends on formation of a precipitate (of barium sulfate) which is quantified by comparing its turbidity to standards. This is not a titration and so cannot be done with the digital (or any other) titrator.

The next step up is colorimetry using photometer or spectrophotometer and of course these are great because you can do tests for chloride, chlorine, chloramine, zinc, copper, nitrate, nitrite, iron, manganese, phosphate, potassium, silica,aluminum, flouride, hardness and the list goes on with them plus beer color, FAN, diacetyl and (if its a UV equipped spec) beer bitterness etc. A UV spectrophotometer is a pretty expensive proposition but there have to be refurbished units out there. Some of the photometer solutions are more reasonably priced but, of course, not as versatile.

As noted in a previous post, sodium is the hard one. Under the assumption that a brewer undertaking water analysis would have a pH meter, we hope he'd have one with external electrode and mV capability so that an ISE could be connected. That's really the only feasible method (that I know of) for a homebrewer and the ISE's are pretty expensive. It is possible to calculate sodium if you have measured everything else that is present in appreciable quantity (this can include things like nitrate and potassium). You must also know the pH.
 
That's a good find but that Brewlab kit isn't very useful. The sulfate tests are too coarse a result and the chloride test strips only go up to 10 ppm.

The only test kits a brewer really needs are the hardness and alkalinity kits. Lamotte kits have a good reputation. I'm not sure if the pH meter is a good one.
 
The sulfate test included with the LaMotte BrewLab has a comparator in it for measuring the turbidity of your water sample after adding the reagent. It ranges from 0-200ppm, but at very low and very high levels it can be difficult to discern. At over 20ppm and below 200ppm though it is very effective.

There are no chloride test strips in the kit, there is a chlorine test strip. It does range from 0-10ppm and is used simply to insure that all of the chlorine is removed from the water before beginning.

The digital pH pen is a very good model for the price range. There are many digital meters available at even higher costs that aren’t nearly as good. LaMotte does carry more advanced pH meters, but they can sometimes be a bit pricy.

To include a chloride or sodium test in this kit would have greatly increased the price, and these test can be a bit involved compared to the others, so it was decided not to put it in this kit. LaMotte does have tests available for these which are sold separately.

This kit is designed to test your water before you begin to brew and cannot test samples after the process has begun. Most of the tests are based on color changes and so will not be effective after you start brewing. The exception to this is the digital pH pen. It can be used throughout the brewing process and with proper care and maintenance should remain accurate for a long time.

Although not everything that you may want to test for is included in this kit we feel it is the most comprehensive collection aimed at the home brewer available to date. The precision and accuracy of the tests are better then anything you could purchase from a pool supply or aquarium store. I know because we make many of those types of kits also. We have been in business since 1919 and have bought that experience to bear while creating this kit.

We are always looking for feedback, and adjustments to the BrewLab may be made in relation to any information we receive from end users.
 
Please make sure you append the future Brewlab instructions to solve down to the ppm level of each ion in the compound. Other literature you have with the other test kits, particularly for Ca show how to solve for Ca, simple if you're a chemist but most of us need a factor to multiply by :)
 
To include a chloride or sodium test in this kit would have greatly increased the price, and these test can be a bit involved compared to the others, so it was decided not to put it in this kit.

There are quite simple color based (titrimetric) tests for chloride which are not terribly expensive, elaborate or difficult to use, but they do involve mercury salts. Then again the sulfate tests involve barium chloride - another heavy metal which must be disposed of properly. The really difficult one is sodium. The 'practical' approach there is to use an ion selective electrode (very similar to a pH electrode but expensive and very slow to respond) which is beyond what most home brewers would be willing to undertake based on cost alone although many pH meters will display in mV and are thus set up to make the measurement if an electrode is obtained. The other methods for sodium involve very expensive gear (like ICP or AAS) and are clearly out of the question unless the homebrewer has access to a laboratory equipped with one of these machines.
 
Back
Top