Man, I love Apfelwein

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Hi all! I have read at least 3/4 of this thread, I think, and have two questions.

1. A lot of people said they were doing batches with only one pound of sugar or dextrose, but I couldn't find any follow-up posts where they reported the results. How did those come out, taste-wise? Any idea of how strong they ended up being?

2. Very noob question: after the 2-3 months in the primary carboy, if one moves the wine to corny kegs, do they need to be pressurized for the several-more-month storage period, or do you just pile them up with the still wine in them and pressurize a week before serving time (or serve them straight up at 10-12 like EdWort does?)

Thanks to everyone who's posted here. It's been a fascinating read, and has given me the confidence to dive in and try it out.

-- edit: Make that three questions.

3. I know a lot of people started out carbing half of their output and leaving half still. And it seems a lot of people have switched to carbing the whole batch. Has anyone gone the other way and decided they like it better still?
 
I've got a batch a bit over 3 weeks in, and intend to serve it young at a party in 2 more weeks. It's already clearing pretty nice, and though I haven't checked gravity yet, I feel fairly confident that when I do I'll find it fermented dry.

I have been planning to force carb it, and then keg transfer to 5L kegs for travel and then serving (to avoid needing to find a place to chill cornies or needing CO2/faucets), keeping it pretty cold the entire trip.

My question now comes because I'd like to backsweeten it with apple juice concentrate, and I'm concerned that I might force carb, then have fermentation kick off again anyway, spoiling both my aroma/sweetness, whatever clarity I may finally achieve with a batch at 5 weeks, and also overcarb, which might cause the mini-kegs to deform/leak.

I used a packet of Montrachet yeast, and I'm a bit unclear how cold that would have to be to go dormant.

Could I safely keep the wine at ~40F (on ice, 20 hour drive in a cooler, to be loaded into a standard fridge at the destination) and keep the yeast asleep, or do I need to stabilize it?

Would this be an appropriate use for campden tablets, post fermentation?

Would I spoil the flavor with campdens under a deadline- would I need to age it out?
 
Here's one question that I don't think I have seen here yet.

I have a batch that is now 3 months old - still on the yeast. I say this, but am unsure. If I look into the bottle (better bottle) the apflewien is nice and clear. The funny thing is I can easily see the botom of the bottle, there seems to be no yeast cake. I used the montrachet yeast as recommended. Did they all lyse?? I tasted it a month ago and it was great - no yeast cake then either. Is this odd???
 
Hi all! I have read at least 3/4 of this thread, I think, and have two questions.

1. A lot of people said they were doing batches with only one pound of sugar or dextrose, but I couldn't find any follow-up posts where they reported the results. How did those come out, taste-wise? Any idea of how strong they ended up being?

2. Very noob question: after the 2-3 months in the primary carboy, if one moves the wine to corny kegs, do they need to be pressurized for the several-more-month storage period, or do you just pile them up with the still wine in them and pressurize a week before serving time (or serve them straight up at 10-12 like EdWort does?)

Thanks to everyone who's posted here. It's been a fascinating read, and has given me the confidence to dive in and try it out.

-- edit: Make that three questions.

3. I know a lot of people started out carbing half of their output and leaving half still. And it seems a lot of people have switched to carbing the whole batch. Has anyone gone the other way and decided they like it better still?

I can answer the first question. I made my Apfelwein with the full two pounds of dextrose, but the only effect of no, one, or two pounds of additional dextrose will be the additional alcohol content. With two pounds, I think this figures to be about 8.5%, and it sure seems to have that effect. A pound of dextrose ferments out completely, while contributing no other flavor to the beverage, and it will raise five gallons of Apfelwein by a very predictable amount, I forget what, but it's easy to look up.

As far as No. 2, I have no experience with kegging. As far as No. 3, I primed my whole batch, and I think it's very good.
 
Here's one question that I don't think I have seen here yet.

I have a batch that is now 3 months old - still on the yeast. I say this, but am unsure. If I look into the bottle (better bottle) the apflewien is nice and clear. The funny thing is I can easily see the botom of the bottle, there seems to be no yeast cake. I used the montrachet yeast as recommended. Did they all lyse?? I tasted it a month ago and it was great - no yeast cake then either. Is this odd???

Answered my own question today. I racked it to a corny today, and there was a very nice layer of yeast on the bottom, it was just in the recess of the bottle, and I could easily see the "Punt" of the better bottle above the yeast layer.

Can't wait to try this, 3 months and counting...
 
This was the first Apfelwein I made, and it was fantastic. I've been playing around with it though. I made it with 5 lbs honey (costco) instead of dextrose. I like the flavor a little more, and the APV shot up to 12.5%. Next time I'm going to reduce the honey and see what happens. I think something in between would be perfect.
 
I have a batch I am going to start soon with brown sugar. But what other types of juice could you do instead of apple? I'm looking for some new stuff to make. All I know it apfelwein and beer. Would like more recipes to utilize the two carboys I have
 
mastamind said:
I have a batch I am going to start soon with brown sugar. But what other types of juice could you do instead of apple? I'm looking for some new stuff to make. All I know it apfelwein and beer. Would like more recipes to utilize the two carboys I have

I think you can use just about any flavor juice you want. I have a cran-raspberry (which I topped off with apple to get to 5gal) batch going that just hit the 4 month mark. I should probably check the gravity and taste a sample pretty soon. It was a very odd mix of flavors to start with but im hoping that after the yeast eat all the sugar, it will taste good.
 
Using juice blends from Old Orchard at a rate of half blend and half apple juice then sugared up to 1.07, both wines finished at 1.008. They were cran-apple and blueberry-pomagranate-apple. I am guessing the raspberry apple will do the same, but we've got to wait and see. These were pitched on montrachet yeast cakes.
 
Raenon said:
I've got a batch a bit over 3 weeks in, and intend to serve it young at a party in 2 more weeks. It's already clearing pretty nice, and though I haven't checked gravity yet, I feel fairly confident that when I do I'll find it fermented dry.

I have been planning to force carb it, and then keg transfer to 5L kegs for travel and then serving (to avoid needing to find a place to chill cornies or needing CO2/faucets), keeping it pretty cold the entire trip.

My question now comes because I'd like to backsweeten it with apple juice concentrate, and I'm concerned that I might force carb, then have fermentation kick off again anyway, spoiling both my aroma/sweetness, whatever clarity I may finally achieve with a batch at 5 weeks, and also overcarb, which might cause the mini-kegs to deform/leak.

I used a packet of Montrachet yeast, and I'm a bit unclear how cold that would have to be to go dormant.

Could I safely keep the wine at ~40F (on ice, 20 hour drive in a cooler, to be loaded into a standard fridge at the destination) and keep the yeast asleep, or do I need to stabilize it?

Would this be an appropriate use for campden tablets, post fermentation?

Would I spoil the flavor with campdens under a deadline- would I need to age it out?

Still hoping that someone with more experience can help me with this.
 
Raenon said:
Still hoping that someone with more experience can help me with this.

Yes, you'd want to use campden before back sweetening.

I will warn you though. This is a GREAT recipe, but it is not good young. Mine has been in bottles for 5 months after being in primary for 4 months, and I'd say it's still not in its prime.

Good luck man!
 
Just bottled mine yesterday!! Was in Primary for 6 weeks. I bottled half of it Dry, then when i had about 2.5 gallons left, I added 3 liters of apple juice (the same brand/ kind i used to make it with). I added campden and sorbate several days earlier. It very good right now to me, but I cant wait for it to be about 6 months old! If it makes it that
long :mug:

Has anyone back sweetened it this way before?
 
Mine was crap - until just recently. I made it in August, and tried it in October, and it was just okay.

Now 8 months later it has gotten a PERFECT carbonation to it and is crystal-friggin-clear, and tastes very smooth and is pretty effing good. Think I'll have one tonight!
 
Two weeks ago I bottled up a five gallon batch I made in April of 2011. Cracked it open for Memorial Day weekend and it was AMAZING. Highly recommend the 13 month wait (if you can stand it).
 
Nish65 said:
Two weeks ago I bottled up a five gallon batch I made in April of 2011. Cracked it open for Memorial Day weekend and it was AMAZING. Highly recommend the 13 month wait (if you can stand it).

Damn if you r gunna wait that long again. Id hope u make 20gl next time
 
I must be in the minority but mine was great flat at two months and carved at 2.5 mo. Family and friends agree that it tastes great. It would suck to have to wait over a year for it to be great. Maybe my palate isn't as refined as others. One mans.....
 
I must be in the minority but mine was great flat at two months and carved at 2.5 mo. Family and friends agree that it tastes great. It would suck to have to wait over a year for it to be great. Maybe my palate isn't as refined as others. One mans.....

I don't think anyone is saying its not great at 2 months - but only that its even better when you wait.
 
When I go to bottle this how long will it take to carb in a closet at room temp? Will it carb like beer?
 
I have been aging 5 gallons of apfelwein for about 6 months. I have done a couple batches and left them dry, I found them to be to sour and dry for my taste.

For those of you that back sweeten out there, How do you personally do it? I plan on kegging so renewed fermentation is not an issue. Has anyone had success with apple juice concentrate, if so how many cans? Anybody use Wine conditioner?
 
My first batch of Edwort's recipe has been kegged for a few months and I have it carbed like my other brews. It's good but I just racked a 6g batch (same amount of sugar) that's been fermenting for 4 months. Tasted a little over some ice and it was amazing. My advice to anyone new to this is to be patient. Or do what I do and make two batches at a time. barn lower than 10and dryer is better (cut the amount of sugar down)
 
My first batch of Edwort's recipe has been kegged for a few months and I have it carbed like my other brews. It's good but I just racked a 6g batch (same amount of sugar) that's been fermenting for 4 months. Tasted a little over some ice and it was amazing. My advice to anyone new to this is to be patient. Or do what I do and make two batches at a time. barn lower than 10and dryer is better (cut the amount of sugar down)

So If you cut down the amount of sugar you use in fermentation it will be less dry? what it you want it still sweet? Can you use another yeast that won't make it dry?
 
So If you cut down the amount of sugar you use in fermentation it will be less dry? what it you want it still sweet? Can you use another yeast that won't make it dry?

No, with Montrachet yeast it will still be dry, but there will be less alcohol due to lessened amount of sugar that converts to alcohol. If you still want it sweet, you can choose to pasteurize or stabilize it and then backsweeten it with a fermentable sugar - or simply add a non-fermentable sugar to the apfelwein at any point in the process of making it. As far as using a yeast that won't make it go dry - I haven't heard of a yeast that only converts a few points of alcohol, although one might exist. Even Flichmann's bread yeast converts drinks up to like 14% - almost double the strength of Apfelwein.
 
Bottled tonight (6/2) after 10 weeks in primary and secondary. It is definitely much better than when I tasted it during xfer to 2ndary. It still smells/tastes very yeasty though. Anybody else experienced that? Hoping that will go away over time.
 
Bottled tonight (6/2) after 10 weeks in primary and secondary. It is definitely much better than when I tasted it during xfer to 2ndary. It still smells/tastes very yeasty though. Anybody else experienced that? Hoping that will go away over time.

Yeah, Montrachet can be a bit yeasty. Tuck the bottles away if it's that annoying - this stuff really is killer with 6+ months of age to it.
 
NineMilBill said:
Yeah, Montrachet can be a bit yeasty. Tuck the bottles away if it's that annoying - this stuff really is killer with 6+ months of age to it.

Thought so. Thanks for the reply.
 
So, I've had a batch patiently in primary for almost 5 months now. The goal was to wait at least 6 months as that seems to be what everyone says to do to get the best results. But with the warm weather we're really wanting to bottle this and start drinking. So, a few questions:

1) What magic happens between 5 and 6 and 8 months? Is it really that different?
2) Does it have to age in primary or will the same effect be achieved aging in the bottles?
3) I'm going to carb half the batch. I assume it's just the same procedure as beer. How much corn sugar have others used? I assume a light carbonation is best for this.

Thanks!
 
So, I've had a batch patiently in primary for almost 5 months now. The goal was to wait at least 6 months as that seems to be what everyone says to do to get the best results. But with the warm weather we're really wanting to bottle this and start drinking. So, a few questions:

1) What magic happens between 5 and 6 and 8 months? Is it really that different?
2) Does it have to age in primary or will the same effect be achieved aging in the bottles?
3) I'm going to carb half the batch. I assume it's just the same procedure as beer. How much corn sugar have others used? I assume a light carbonation is best for this.

Thanks!

EdWort has posted in this thread a couple of times about recommending that the apfelwine only sit in primary on the yeast for about 3 months max - after that, you're more likely to pick up off flavors/aromas from the dead yeast autolyzing. When people talk about aging in terms of time, they are usually referring to time since last "open" handling, thus "3 weeks aging" in primary is pretty obvious, but "3 months aging/conditioning" in a secondary fermenter or bright tank refers only to the time in that tank and does not include primary fermentation time....likewise, "3 months aging/conditioning in the bottle" says absolutely nothing about how long a product was fermented for - it is purely the amount of time since the bottle was capped. For example, I brewed a Patersbier that spent 3 months in primary fermentation, 9 months in secondary, and 8 months in the bottle - when serving, I'd say the beer was aged for 8 months, but had been brewed 20 months ago.

All that blah-blah-b.s. about semantics aside, you should rack your wine off your yeast now. You are probably getting minimal daily contribution of off-flavors at this point, but you could stir a lot up trying to bottle directly, and that cake would NOT taste like a bit of tangy bready yeast that hasn't flocculated yet - you'll taste that it's old and mostly dead. After racking, I would give it a day or two to re-settle anything that did stir up (if you have the fridge space, maybe even cold-crash it to help flocculation) - if you see much of any sediment, repeat the racking until it stays clear. I wouldn't normally go to this effort with apfelwine, but we're trying to gently separate out the old yeast here.

During the aging/conditioning process a number of complicated things happen (some of which aren't quite fully understood) that result in subtle changes to flavor, aroma, color, clarity, mouthfeel, body, etc. Any primer on fermentation processes should explain the start of the process clearly, so I won't re-hash that other than to point out that yeast still in suspension adds to the density (gravity), mouthfeel, and texture as well as the flavors and aromas to be expected. This body drops out as yeast is removed, leaving the result to be thinner, more watery, less cloying, less tangy, and certainly less bready. Yeast flavors and smells are very strong and can be detected at very low levels by the human palate, often masking others completely - removing them allows for the subtler ones from other ingredients or process effects to show through. For example, many meads don't smell or taste remotely like honey until the yeast starts to settle. As the yeasts work, of course, alcohol and CO2 are produced, but so are many other byproducts in trace amounts. These byproducts interact with each other, with constant changes in temperature, atmospheric pressure, and chemical composition of their environment acting as endless catalysts for reactions. The yeasts themselves begin to break down as they die off, providing more components for reactions.

The end result is that even after yeasts have completely died or gone dormant - even after any bacteria have dome the same, reactions continue for quite some time, in ever-decreasing magnitude (like the ring of a big bell fading away). As long as the combined magnitude of these changes is above a level detectable by the human palate, we will notice that the product continues to change in subtle, not-always-definable ways. As the reactions get smaller, it takes longer to notice changes in their combined effect.

To put all that in layman's terms, fermented beverages will change character quickly and often drastically in their initial period in a bottle. Changes will continue for some time, taking longer and longer and time goes on, until the flavor and aroma stabilize at the peak of perfection. Then, the process can often continue into undesirable changes. This is different for every drink.

What is the "peak of perfection"? Heh...an endless debate. :cross:
To put it simply, it's the point that the undesired flavors and aromas (yeasty breadiness, harsh fusel alcohols, fruit green-ness, chlorophyll, etc.) have minimized and the desired flavors and aromas (fruit juices, flowers, herbs, spices, chocolates, rich malts, etc.) have come to the forefront in the desired balance.
To put it even more simply, it's when all the flavors come together a way that is "yummy" and seems to have stopped getting better. (Which means drink it before it starts getting worse!)

Comments on carbing range the gamut.....do you want light fizz or champagne?
 
EdWort has posted in this thread a couple of times about recommending that the apfelwine only sit in primary on the yeast for about 3 months max - after that, you're more likely to pick up off flavors/aromas from the dead yeast autolyzing. ...

Wow, thanks for the very detailed response. I obviously missed EdWort's suggestion. And as you realize I misunderstood what people meant when speaking of aging it. I assume they meant in secondary since they speak of being patient. Once it's bottle aging you can always try some. So, not much patience is required.

As for carbing it, if the yeast is now dead can I even carb it? Do I have to add new yeast? If that latter, I won't bother.

Thanks again for the education. Much appreciated.
 
Wow, thanks for the very detailed response. I obviously missed EdWort's suggestion. And as you realize I misunderstood what people meant when speaking of aging it. I assume they meant in secondary since they speak of being patient. Once it's bottle aging you can always try some. So, not much patience is required.

Well, yes and no. Not as much patience as you were perhaps thinking in terms of total waiting (this is actually an amazingly fast wine). The real trick with the patience is the waiting while knowing it's bottled and already good to drink....knowing it'll be better if you can just wait (but with slight worry about waiting too long....)...

As for carbing it, if the yeast is now dead can I even carb it? Do I have to add new yeast? If that latter, I won't bother.

If the yeast is entirely dead, yes. It is likely a portion is dead and a portion is dormant. Siphon off 1-2 pints. Add a little yeast nutrient and/or energizer and some simple sugars (dextrose, honey, table sugar). Shake it up good and put an airlock on it. If you get any CO2 activity, you have successfully roused the yeast. Add your priming sugar, shake it up, pour into your carboy, wait 5-10 minutes, and start bottling.

Remember that most wine bottles aren't made for high levels of carbonation - use beer or champagne bottles if priming!

Thanks again for the education. Much appreciated.

No worries, that's what we're all here for. You caught me just waking up with my coffee and a few minutes to spare. :D
 
Just to add to the body of knowledge: lalvin rc-212 yeast makes a delicious and appley apfelwein
 
Just to add to the body of knowledge: lalvin rc-212 yeast makes a delicious and appley apfelwein

Somebody (you?) posted this awhile ago. I am going to try it for my next batch!
So far I have used either Montrachet or EC-1118. I prefer the EC-1118 as crisper, clearer and tastier but neither retains a great deal of apple flavor. Was going to try some D-47, but I think I will try the RC-212.
 
I tried searching for some distinctive info on two topics but everything seems scattered.

1. Is there a general list of sugar to carb volume that people have used?

2. A general list of back-sweetning sugars and amounts to use? (honey, lactose, Splenda, wine conditioner, etc)
 
Depends on preference and how fizzy you like it. I use 1-1.2 oz (by weight) sugar (usually dextrose) per gallon of Apfelwein to carb. Treat it however you treat your beers for the preferred level of carbonation and it should be fine.

Haven't backsweetened, so I can't address #2 other than that honey doesn't belong on the list as it contains fermentable sugars.
 
I primed with 5 oz. dextrose in 5 gal, just like I do all my beers. Worked out very nicely. I have no interest in back-sweetening, so I wouldn't know about that.
 
Recluse said:
Depends on preference and how fizzy you like it. I use 1-1.2 oz (by weight) sugar (usually dextrose) per gallon of Apfelwein to carb. Treat it however you treat your beers for the preferred level of carbonation and it should be fine.

Haven't backsweetened, so I can't address #2 other than that honey doesn't belong on the list as it contains fermentable sugars.

I put the honey on there as I was thinking of using it with sorbic acid for the flavor really. Guess I could have mentioned that fact for a bit of clarity.
 
I put the honey on there as I was thinking of using it with sorbic acid for the flavor really. Guess I could have mentioned that fact for a bit of clarity.

OK.. was going to say that you can sorbate/sulfite and honey would be OK.

I have heard that you shouldn't use sorbate alone, as it will stop yeast growth but will not kill active yeast, and can sometimes also lead to off flavors.

Only time I used it to stop a Mead at a sweet stage I used both.
 
Did my very first 5 gallon batch tonight, followed original recipe exact and hope it works right... wifey (swmbo? What's this stand for) is excited for saving money as I can go through a case a weekend... now to play the waiting game :)
 
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