Homer Bucket Leaching Chemicals

I did a bonehead move last brew day. I had stuck sparge city on my mash tun and I poured the whole mash into a Homer Bucket for around 10 minutes. Took me awhile to find the scissors to cut the the twisted portion of the braid.

Yeah. I know. 152F. Leaching chemicals. I should have used my brew bucket.

Anyways dump or no dump?

What grade of plastics is it? I don't believe 10 minutes should be a problem.

wildwest450 said:

What grade of plastics is it? I don't believe 10 minutes should be a problem.

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Homer Buckets (Home Depot) are orange HDPE 2. I think some are concerned that the dye is carcinogenic.

Hdpe 2 is a food safe plastic, I see no problem.


HDPE (high density polyethylene) is used in milk, juice and water containers in order to take advantage of its excellent protective barrier properties. Its chemical resistance properties also make it well suited for items such as containers for household chemicals and detergents. Most five gallon food buckets are made from HDPE.

Well so far there's one vote to keep it. I do remember reading an article that stated that yeast will absorb nasty stuff like lead. Actually the beer in England has no lead in it while the water has 3x the amount allowed in the USA. I'm not sure that the yeast would eat any carcinogenic chemicals though.

If you that worried about mash water being sullied after 10 minutes in a food safe container, this may not be the best hobby for you. You are stressing yourself over nothing.

wildwest450 said:

If you that worried about mash water being sullied after 10 minutes in a food safe container, this may not be the best hobby for you. You are stressing yourself over nothing.

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OK. Thanks. Sorry about being a whiny worry wort.

njnear76 said:

OK. Thanks. Sorry about being a whiny worry wort.

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No need to apologize. Your beer will be fine!

There's no guarantee that it is food safe. HDPE 2 is a certfied food safe if the processes and materials used are food safe (and when the FDA approves it)*. I've read comments/statements that make convincing arguments for and against the homer buckets. What it comes down to is you need to read both arguments and do what you're comfortable with.

Having said that, I think you should keep it. You don't have much more to lose at this point.

On a side note... I was in a port-o-john recently and I was happy to see that the wall was stamped HDPE 2. Would you ferment in that? I don't think they made that plastic to be food safe. I mean, it is meant to hold food, but... after it is processed by us (gross)


*(no quote/link here, just read all the other threads beating this to death)

All right, after some more digging, technically not all hdpe 2 is classified as food safe. Having said that I still see NO problem having wort or mash in there for 10 minutes. I use a blue 3 gallon hdpe2 bucket to transfer from mash tun to kettle.

Would I ferment in one? Probably not, but I would drink the beer you made with it.

Yeah. I read a lot of those posts about food safe versus non-food safe HDPE 2 too.

A google search brings up many anti-Homer rants on those survivalist boards. Frankly, it is hard to trust the logical conclusions of people who are hoarding goods for the end times though.

From my understanding a company has to pay an independent lab to test and certify a product is food safe. So essentially the Homer buckets could be food safe, but were never actually tested for it.

I'm going to keep this brew.

The HDPE itself in not the issue. It is the colorant used to make the buckets orange. Also. there may be quite a bit of nasty reprocessed HDPE in there as well.

arturo7 said:

The HDPE itself in not the issue. It is the colorant used to make the buckets orange. Also. there may be quite a bit of nasty reprocessed HDPE in there as well.

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That's why I wouldn't ferment in one. But I wouldn't chuck a beer that was in one for 10 minutes. I also found some info on some salt water aquarium site. Something to do with storing RO water in them. Someone said that long term storage resulted in a change in the water, I believe it was 3 months or longer.

OT


Ya know, when you think about it, RO water is kinda scary. It basically has all of the minerals ripped out of it.

I'm no scientist, but I suspect it wants to absorb minerals to regain it's ballance. So if you drink this stuff after a big night it takes even more minerals out of you body, thus extending your general feeling of crudiness.

If the bucket in question is #2 HDPE, which has been certified food-safe for a long time, so I don't really care what color it is. This stuff is certified food safe, and I'm not interested in any rumors or anecdotes that say "Herbie's friend's ex's dog's flea said that orange colored buckets cause cancer." This means zilch! I used to have a superintendent who was fond of saying "-Studies show-" and then follow it with any assertion he wished, and expect those of us in the meeting to regard it as fact.

NO. I want to read the study, the procedures that were used, the sample sizes, all the results. Then, I'm almost certainly going to want to see followup studies done by different investigators, all the details, etc. Then, and only then, we'll talk.

rico567 said:

NO. I want to read the study, the procedures that were used, the sample sizes, all the results. Then, I'm almost certainly going to want to see followup studies done by different investigators, all the details, etc. Then, and only then, we'll talk.

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True. We ingest some carcinogens every day so a study based on human consumption does not carry a lot of weight. Environmental factors play a substantial role along with previous history.

The cancer rate in NJ is very high. Is it air pollution? Contaminated water? More people? A higher population of smokers? More people eating frozen microwavable foods?

That being said, I've been using these homer buckets for a year now to store grains. They are probably safe, but it would not hurt the bank to pickup some "magical" food safe buckets.

njnear76 said:

Anyways dump or no dump?

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never, never, NEVER, EVER dump unless you are completely, absolutely, 100% convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that your beer is ruined.

If you are completely, absolutely, 100% convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that your beer is ruined, bottle/keg and wait a year. Then reassess.

I use Mendards buckets (the same but they say menards instead) to hold my running between first and last running. The last 3-4 batches. No off flavors or anything from mine. Mine are colored Dark Gray.

I've got a batch of mead in a homer bucket as primary. Been in there for about a month, and I'm planning on racking it this weekend. If I die from sipping the hydro sample I'll let you know

MikeRLynch said:

I've got a batch of mead in a homer bucket as primary. Been in there for about a month, and I'm planning on racking it this weekend. If I die from sipping the hydro sample I'll let you know

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Awww... man. Maybe we can have homebrewer's cancer ward. At least we can talk about beer and brewing while on our death beds. :rockin:

In truth, I'm not super worried about it. The leaching is probably minimal for both the grain storage and this incident. Never mind that I use a vinyl hose when I drain my wort. Life is risky. Still it does not hurt to be a bit more careful.

arturo7 said:

The HDPE itself in not the issue. It is the colorant used to make the buckets orange. Also. there may be quite a bit of nasty reprocessed HDPE in there as well.

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If the reprocessed HDPE was nasty, it wouldn't meld into a bucket shape. The stuff has to be pretty darn pure to get it to mold into the shape of something like a bucket.

Most HDPE already has dyes in it. The natural color is that kind of milky white the color of milk containers. Some version are pretty white if the walls are pretty thick. If the bucket is any other color, including very bright white, some kind of dye has been used. Hence, dyes are in just about every darn HDPE food safe bottle out there. I know that walking around Walmart, there's thousands of dyed HDPE items.

US Plastics has 5 gallon FDA buckets. I just ordered 6 of them for my grain storage. Including shipping it was around ~32.00.

kaiser423 said:

If the reprocessed HDPE was nasty, it wouldn't meld into a bucket shape. The stuff has to be pretty darn pure to get it to mold into the shape of something like a bucket.

Most HDPE already has dyes in it. The natural color is that kind of milky white the color of milk containers. Some version are pretty white if the walls are pretty thick. If the bucket is any other color, including very bright white, some kind of dye has been used. Hence, dyes are in just about every darn HDPE food safe bottle out there. I know that walking around Walmart, there's thousands of dyed HDPE items.

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Wrong on both counts.

Scrap can be successfully re-used in a pail. It is even easier to hide in a darker color, like the Homer bucket.

The colorants are also subject to FDA regulations. Almost every white or gray colorant is FDA. Once you get into the custom colors, especially the reds and oranges, the colorant gets quite expensive because of the pigments that you can't use in it.

arturo7 said:

Wrong on both counts.

Scrap can be successfully re-used in a pail. It is even easier to hide in a darker color, like the Homer bucket.

The colorants are also subject to FDA regulations. Almost every white or gray colorant is FDA. Once you get into the custom colors, especially the reds and oranges, the colorant gets quite expensive because of the pigments that you can't use in it.

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I'm not sure I buy that. I really think that the manufacturing process is more of a question and whether or not that the material is cleaned prior to and after production.

I suspect that the Homer buckets might have a residue on them, which makes them not food safe. However, if they were cleaned properly, they could be fine.

Although I admit that it might need some strong chemicals and perhaps melting to strip any harmful ingredients. Maybe that is what they do when they melt it down.

The "dangerous" "toxic" "cancer causing" Homer buckets can be recycled and no doubt, they will end up in food safe HDPE products. I am willing to be that all HDPE plastic comes from the same source.

I say keep the beer... and drink it up. If you develop any uncontrollable facial ticks, a third ear or a beach ball sized brain-tumor... let the rest of us know ASAP.

On my death bed... I'll be muttering: "Homer bucket, why did you forsake me?"

FYI: I don't really find these buckets to "dangerous," but I am replacing them.

Cape Brewing said:

I say keep the beer... and drink it up. If you develop any uncontrollable facial ticks, a third ear or a beach ball sized brain-tumor... let the rest of us know ASAP.

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Nah - then you would still only have an anecdote. A sample size of 1 is simply not statistically significant. We need to set up a study. A couple or several hundred in each cohort (using Homer buckets and not using Homer buckets) should do it... anyone want to write a grant to get funding?

I use 'em for weighing out grain and dumping grain into my rig. And I've used them in instances where I need to carry wort from my rig to the fermenters... but that was 70 degree, cooled wort and they were only in the buckets for a minute.

... and no beach ball (tick) sized tum(tick)ors for this guy (tick) yet!!

njnear76 said:

I'm not sure I buy that. I really think that the manufacturing process is more of a question and whether or not that the material is cleaned prior to and after production.

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There is no cleaning of the bucket after it is molded and no cleaning of the material before it is fed into the machine.

They might clean the raw material off the floor but that could happen with an FDA bucket as well.

This is a tricky topic, and I do not believe you can generalize it in terms of "5 gallon buckets" or maybe even "Homer buckets". Who knows where the buckets come from at a California store vs one in Maine? Do they come from the same warehouse or distributor, or are they even the same material? Who knows.

As homebrewers we have a tendancy to repurpose items, often for means that they were never ever originally intended. Just because something isn't "certified" for food grade, doesn't necessarily mean it's not. It just may be the fact that the manufacturer decided not to spend the money to get it certified. The best thing to do is to call the manufacturer, if you can't get a straight answer, I'd look somewhere else. As mentioned, the "plastic" may be food grade, but who knows what else they may add to make it easier to work with or make it pretty colors.

Also, when it comes to a safety issue (i.e. leeching potentially toxic chemicals), personal experiences matter zilch! Unless they had the beer tested, it means they didn't detect and off flavors. Who knows how many taste-less substances could be coming from the plastics. It's just not a good way to determine safety, IMO.

Bottom line, unless you know for sure, it's a risk IMO.

HomebrewJeff said:

Also, when it comes to a safety issue (i.e. leeching potentially toxic chemicals), personal experiences matter zilch! Unless they had the beer tested, it means they didn't detect and off flavors. Who knows how many taste-less substances could be coming from the plastics. It's just not a good way to determine safety, IMO.

Bottom line, unless you know for sure, it's a risk IMO.

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I thought about this subject and researched a bit since I posted the thread. I don't think Hot Liquid+Homer Buckets is a good idea. High temperatures will cause any plastic to leach especially if that temperature is above 180F. That being said, I am going to drink this brew. The harm is probably on par with nuking a microwaveable meal.

Grain storage is probably OK. The grains might absorb some plastic off gasing, but probably not enough to do harm. I would have to think that boiling the wort for an hour will release some of those nasty fumes.

It does not hurt to be overly cautious. Lately there has been a lot of negative stuff on the news regarding plastics. Then again life is dangerous.

I've used homer buckets for transferring wort from mash to kettle a few times, and even used one as a secondary for about a week. I'm not worrying, hell the alcohol is probably worse for you then anything in that's going to leach into the beer.

But now I'm afraid to drink orange juice...those bottles are orange!

kidding of course

What I don't understand is why people would even take a chance with their health. I guess it's like people who continue to smoke even after they find out they have lung cancer or women who drink alcohol after they find out they are pregnant. I guess people just don't care. My local Homebrew Store has FDA Food Safe buckets for $2.00 more than a Homer Bucket. Isn't piece of mind worth $2.00 when it comes to your health? Maybe it's me, but if I had the choice to use a bucket that is made dyes that are unkown or a FDA Food Safe bucket at $2.00 more, I'm going to spend the extra $2.00. We can debate this until we are all blue in the face but don't you think it's stupid to put your health at risk over a couple of bucks?

Sawdustguy said:

What I don't understand is why people would even take a chance with their health. I guess it's like people who continue to smoke even after they find out they have lung cancer or women who drink alcohol after they find out they are pregnant. I guess people just don't care. My local Homebrew Store has FDA Food Safe buckets for $2.00 more than a Homer Bucket. Isn't piece of mind worth $2.00 when it comes to your health? Maybe it's me, but if I had the choice to use a bucket that is made dyes that are unkown or a FDA Food Safe bucket at $2.00 more, I'm going to spend the extra $2.00. We can debate this until we are all blue in the face but don't you think it's stupid to put your health at risk over a couple of bucks?

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Maybe its just that people aren't utterly paranoid. People take calculated risks every day. Like you said, people smoke. I could probably eat a home depot bucket and take in less carcinogens than are in a single cigarette.

And $2 difference? Home Depot are $1.97 near me. Ale Pales at the LHBS are $14.99

Economics aside, functionality aside, I have seen not one post in this thread that establishes that there is any threat to health that is possible from using hot wort in a #2 HDPE bucket. That is all.

Synovia said:

Maybe its just that people aren't utterly paranoid. People take calculated risks every day. Like you said, people smoke. I could probably eat a home depot bucket and take in less carcinogens than are in a single cigarette.

And $2 difference? Home Depot are $1.97 near me. Ale Pales at the LHBS are $14.99

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You are guessing plain and simple. You have no idea what dye was used in these buckets. Home Depot has not made that information available. That alone makes me suspicious. Some of the dyes used in plastics are toxic and some of the dyes are safe, but you have no clue what dye was used in the Homer Buckets. Even for $12 more it's not worth the risk for me, although food safe buckets at my LHBS are much less expensive than your LHBS. I agree that people take risks everyday, but for what, to save $12? Look, use the buckets if you feel safe, but I will not take the risk with my health not knowing what dye was used.

I have never fermented in one but I know people that have/do and they make some darn nice beers. The one guy has been brewing for 18 yrs and has used homer buckets for 10 yrs.

I called Argee the maker of my homer bucket with the dye question. The response was a low chuckle and a "no your OK.... hey you fermenting beer or wine in those buckets?" He happened to be a homebrewer too.

When I was a kid we would drink from a hose.... and were still living!

I say keep it and I think your fine....

rico567 said:

Economics aside, functionality aside, I have seen not one post in this thread that establishes that there is any threat to health that is possible from using hot wort in a #2 HDPE bucket. That is all.

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You don't read very closely, do you?

jtrainer said:

I called Argee the maker of my homer bucket with the dye question. The response was a low chuckle and a "no your OK.... hey you fermenting beer or wine in those buckets?"

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I know that guy, he's in San Diego. I've been in his factory. I sold him some of the equipment he uses to make to those buckets. I am not saying anything negative about his integrity. He's an OK guy and I enjoyed working with him. However, I would never use one of those buckets for beer.

FWIW from the Weber web site:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Not All HDPE Containers Are Food Grade[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]There is a common misconception that all containers made of white plastic or HDPE plastic bearing the

symbol are food grade containers. This is not true.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]If you are considering the purchase of a container from some place other than a kitchen or restaurant supply store, and the container is not clearly labeled as "food safe" or being made of food grade plastic, then you should assume that it is not food grade and you should not brine in it—unless you line it with a food grade plastic bag.[/FONT]