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Wow. You've got nearly RO water there coming out of your tap! I'm jealous!
The benefits of living on sand. My water is only 30 feet down too.
I would go higher on all your numbers here. You should try and at least hit the minimums recommended (CA at least 50, Mg at least 10) in the spreadsheet and for an IPA I would try and target Moser's ideal pale ale which is higher around all over. While your Cl:S04 ratio may be ok (I'd probably go even more to the bitter side) the amounts of Cl and S04 also matter. They're too low if you ask me. Look at Moser's numbers. Target that.
Kal

So for an extract, in my situation, you would still shoot for salt quantities in a water profile? The SRM parts wouldn't matter though, correct?
 
In other words, if I were to do an extract IPA with my bare water, it says "very malty". Should I focus on using the spreadsheet to adjust the chloride sulfate ratio only since somebody already did the mash adjustments to produce the extract? I'd do this to get "very bitter"

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
CaCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 10 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 0 / 0
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 4 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 2 / 2
Mg: 11 / 11
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 8 / 8
SO4: 45 / 45
CaCO3: 11 / 11

RA (mash only): 3 (5 to 10 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.19 (Very Bitter)

I know for most people an adjustment for extract is probably not needed, but where my water is almost RO, I'm thinking I may need make adjustments for bitterness levels.
My early experiences in brewing, I was all extract and it seems to me that bitter beers like IPA did not come out quite right, but malty beers like altbier came out fabulous. That's chloride to sulfate ratio?

Am I thinking correctly?

TIA
 
I'm don't know 100% what's involved for extract brewing but the Cl:S04 ratio holds true no matter what you're brewing (extract vs grain).

IMHo, you'd also want to get your Ca and Mg levels into the minimums for yeast health. Your Ca is extremely low.

Kal
 
Thanks, so more like this maybe:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
CaCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 10 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 5 / 0
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 4 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 55 / 55
Mg: 11 / 11
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 8 / 8
SO4: 45 / 45
CaCO3: 90 / 90

RA (mash only): 44 (9 to 14 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.19 (Very Bitter)

The only thing out of suggested range is sulfate, but I think the chloride sulfate ratio is more important than individual levels of either, correct?
 
so, maybe this was answered before, but:

what is the difference between a mash addition and a boil addition?
 
so, maybe this was answered before, but:

what is the difference between a mash addition and a boil addition?

The mash addition relates to the water used in the mash. The boil addition relates to the water used to sparge with, but it is added to the boil kettle not the sparge water.
 
i meant in the final product. what are the reasons for adding to mash as opposed to adding to boil?

Ahhhh! doh!

The mash additions are made to ensure that the mash pH will be at the ideal level for mashing. The sparge/boil additions are made to ensure that your total water (mash+sparge) will have the best characteristics for enhancing flavor.
 
Ahhhh! doh!

The mash additions are made to ensure that the mash pH will be at the ideal level for mashing. The sparge/boil additions are made to ensure that your total water (mash+sparge) will have the best characteristics for enhancing flavor.

I am still a little confused on the water quantity to use. The mash water is obvious. I am mashing in with about 6-gallons and I use this quantity on the spreadsheet.

Then I am fly sparging with about 9.5 gallons but only collecting about 12.5 gallons of wort. My instincts tell me to use 6.5 gallons in the spreadsheet for my sparge volume as this is how much actually ends up in the BK. Is this correct when not fully draining the MLT?
 
You're right. The sparge water volume in the spreadsheet is Preboil volume - mash volume. In other words, it's whatever amount you collect via the sparge process.

You could think of that field as "sparge water volume that makes it into the BK"
 
You're right. The sparge water volume in the spreadsheet is Preboil volume - mash volume. In other words, it's whatever amount you collect via the sparge process.

You could think of that field as "sparge water volume that makes it into the BK"

Thanks, that's what I was thinking but just wanted to make sure as it can make quite a difference.
 
Lil help here. I understand how to use the spreadsheet. How would you handle the additions when doing a mash out? For example: Mash in with 3.5 gal, mash out with 2.5 gal, 1 batch sparge with 3.25 gal? Would you just divide up the salts for the mash and add them at mash in, and mash out? Or just add them all at the beginning? Hope this is understandable.

Thanks.
 
Add mash salts at 3.5 gallon ratio directly to the mash after dough in, mash out with straight tap and add sparge additions to the boil kettle at 5.75 gallons ratio. That mashout dilution shouldn't be a problem because it's only going to sit for 10 minutes or less.

I wouldn't worry about pH unless your salts are moving residual alkalinity in huge bounds like if you were doing a 40SRM stout with built up distilled water. In extreme cases like that I'd consider adding salts into the mash post mashout and/or sparge infusion.
 
Lil help here. I understand how to use the spreadsheet. How would you handle the additions when doing a mash out? For example: Mash in with 3.5 gal, mash out with 2.5 gal, 1 batch sparge with 3.25 gal? Would you just divide up the salts for the mash and add them at mash in, and mash out? Or just add them all at the beginning? Hope this is understandable.

Thanks.

I would think you would need to divide them as most of your mash time is at 3.5 gallons and you need the right ph here. Then either add the rest at mash out or maybe treat mash out water as sparge?

Good question...I'd like to know from someone more experienced also.

*edit* I see Bobby_M jumped on this. Thanks!
 
What water profile should I use with the EZ water adjustment for doing a koelsch?

This is my starting RO water.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 1
Mg: 1
Na: 8
Cl: 5
SO4: 3
CaCO3: 12

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 1.625 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 0 / 0
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 1 / 1
Mg: 1 / 1
Na: 8 / 8
Cl: 5 / 5
SO4: 3 / 3
CaCO3: 12 / 12

RA (mash only): 11 (6 to 11 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.67 (Malty)

This is going to be a PM with 3lb of Pilsener malt and 2lb of Pale 2 row.
The rest of the fermentables is a Pilsner LME.
 
I'm going to be working on an English Brown Ale (Samuel Smith Nut Brown Ale Clone).

I can figure out the addition numbers if someone would be willing to give me an idea about the target water profile. I'm kinda new to this so I'm not sure which profiles go with which style. I'm not trying to make an exact replica, but I do want my beer to have the appropriate SRM rating and RA. Any input on this? Thanks!
 
I'm going to be working on an English Brown Ale (Samuel Smith Nut Brown Ale Clone).

I can figure out the addition numbers if someone would be willing to give me an idea about the target water profile. I'm kinda new to this so I'm not sure which profiles go with which style. I'm not trying to make an exact replica, but I do want my beer to have the appropriate SRM rating and RA. Any input on this? Thanks!

I'm not sure if this is what you are asking, but the London profile (if there is a single London profile!) is a good start for that style. I brewed a Nut Brown Ale a couple of months ago. It is definintely a malt-forward beer, so I would shoot for a malty, or maybe even balanced CL:Sulphate ratio. I'm sure the recipe will have the SRM range.
 
I'm not sure if this is what you are asking, but the London profile (if there is a single London profile!) is a good start for that style. I brewed a Nut Brown Ale a couple of months ago. It is definintely a malt-forward beer, so I would shoot for a malty, or maybe even balanced CL:Sulphate ratio. I'm sure the recipe will have the SRM range.

Personally I wouldn't try and target a certain city when "building" water. That's backwards. Water is an integral part of a recipe, just like any of the other ingredients and you need to consider the whole package, not just try and target a certain city profile.

The brewers in London were stuck with the type of water they had so they would formulate their recipes accordingly.

I don't know what you're water's like, but here's what I'd do:

Make sure you're at least at the minimum ppm's for Ca (50) and Mg (10). Don't worry about Sodium too much. Then target a Cl:S04 ratio that is on the balanced to malty side, probably somewhere around 1.00 - 1.50. You also don't want your Cl or S04 to be too low either as Cl emphasizes flavour. So if Cl is extremely low (say between 0 and 10, or 20) I would probably bump up Cl to at least 30-50. S04 would then have to follow to keep that Cl:S04 ratio where you want it.

Post your city's water profile numbers. That'll help.

Kal
 
Personally I wouldn't try and target a certain city when "building" water. That's backwards. Water is an integral part of a recipe, just like any of the other ingredients and you need to consider the whole package, not just try and target a certain city profile.

The brewers in London were stuck with the type of water they had so they would formulate their recipes accordingly.

Thanks Kal. My bad. I should have said "have a look at the London profile". I didn't mean to convey trying to emulate that specific profile. Although the Cl:SO4 ratio in the London profile in the spreadsheet is 1.06, which should be perfect for the proposed style.
 
I'm going to be working on an English Brown Ale (Samuel Smith Nut Brown Ale Clone).

I can figure out the addition numbers if someone would be willing to give me an idea about the target water profile. I'm kinda new to this so I'm not sure which profiles go with which style. I'm not trying to make an exact replica, but I do want my beer to have the appropriate SRM rating and RA. Any input on this? Thanks!

Here's my starting water profile:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 28
Mg: 8
Na: 23
Cl: 28
SO4: 18
HCO3: 56
Starting pH: 8.3

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6.65/11.5

I'm definitely not looking to match up to a certain city's water profile. I'm looking more for the "ideal" water profile for a given style. Like the difference between Mosher's English Pale Ale water profile and the "Burton on Trent" profile. I'm with you on that Kai. I should have been perhaps a bit more specific in my initial post.

Thanks again.
 
Ignore previous, I think I've got it. Assume that the extract has all the minerals your yeasties need. SRM doesn't matter here as the mash is done. But if your Chloride to sulfate ratio is off for your style of beer you can add chloride or sulfate containing minerals to adjust hop sharpness or malt accentuation.
 
TH/Bobby,

Thanks for the great work on this! I've made a few additions to my local copy of the spreadsheet. I added a second row of starting water profile salts so you can dilute with something other than distilled water (e.g. Poland Spring or something else you may have on hand).

I also added dropdown boxes for each profile row, so you can add your water to the profile table and populate the profile boxes quickly to test out different mixtures.

Let me know if you guys would like a look. Or I'll just use it myself :)

-Joe
 
TH/Bobby,

Thanks for the great work on this! I've made a few additions to my local copy of the spreadsheet. I added a second row of starting water profile salts so you can dilute with something other than distilled water (e.g. Poland Spring or something else you may have on hand).

I also added dropdown boxes for each profile row, so you can add your water to the profile table and populate the profile boxes quickly to test out different mixtures.

Let me know if you guys would like a look. Or I'll just use it myself :)

-Joe

I'd like a copy.
 
I'd just like TH to chime in, as I'd rather not distribute a modified version of someone else's work without permission.

-Joe

Just put it here man! Don't be skeered. It could end up in the final version.

on a side note....tH & Bobby_M thank you for finally explaining this stuff so that it makes sense to those of us that don't have phD's in water chemistry. Very much appreciated.
 
Just to be clear, if I make a mash addition of 3 grams, and the sparge additions say 4.4 grams, I'm adding 3 grams of the salt in my mash water, then an additional 4.4 grams of that salt into the boil after sparging, right?

And Epsom salt is the only way to get my Mg levels up, right? It makes my sulfate go up quickly and I have to chase it with salt. Which in my case works out, because I also need sodium, but just curious.

mashy.jpg


-Joe
 
i'm planning on brewing a stout tomorrow and using the following additions-

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 29
Mg: 4
Na: 2
Cl: 1
SO4: 8
HCO3: 82

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 9
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 5 / 7.5
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1.5 / 2.25
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.75
NaHCO3: 7 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 135 / 135
Mg: 14 / 14
Na: 86 / 36
Cl: 33 / 33
SO4: 51 / 51
CaCO3: 359 / 249

RA (mash only): 254 (26 to 31 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.65 (Bitter)

hows this sound?

cheers
martin
 
i'm planning on brewing a stout tomorrow and using the following additions-

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 29
Mg: 4
Na: 2
Cl: 1
SO4: 8
HCO3: 82

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 9
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 5 / 7.5
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1.5 / 2.25
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.75
NaHCO3: 7 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 135 / 135
Mg: 14 / 14
Na: 86 / 36
Cl: 33 / 33
SO4: 51 / 51
CaCO3: 359 / 249

RA (mash only): 254 (26 to 31 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.65 (Bitter)

hows this sound?

cheers
martin

Do you want this bitter? I always thought of a stout as more balanced. That is how I adjusted my water anyway. It is still aging but the sample was great.
 
does this look better? i'm only just starting to use salts and i wanted to make sure i was on the right track.


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 29
Mg: 4
Na: 2
Cl: 1
SO4: 8
HCO3: 82

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 9
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 5 / 7.5
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 2.5 / 3.75
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.75
NaHCO3: 7 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 147 / 147
Mg: 14 / 14
Na: 86 / 36
Cl: 54 / 54
SO4: 51 / 51
CaCO3: 359 / 249

RA (mash only): 245 (25 to 30 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.06 (Balanced)
 
I've read through this entire thread and I saw some references to "weighing" out the actual salts in teaspoon measurements (different volumes for different salts). Seems to me that this introduces a lot of room for error--especially when you're going through such trouble to calculate the correct amounts using the spreadsheet. If I'm wrong, and it's not that important, please lemme know.

Does anyone use a scale for these measurements? My scale only measures out grams in whole numbers...so that won't work. I brew 5 gallon batches.

Any recommendations on a good scale for this?
 
I weigh mine out, I agree - I would never go by the tsp method. You can get a cheap jewelers scale for under 20 bucks that is accurate to .01g ... I also believe we should test our water after we adjust it to make sure we hit the target or at least make sure the RA and Cl:SO4 ratio is what we were shooting for.
 
Does anyone use a scale for these measurements? My scale only measures out grams in whole numbers...so that won't work. I brew 5 gallon batches.

Any recommendations on a good scale for this?

I bought mine on ebay for around $20. The brand is Digiweigh. It works great. Type ".01 gram scale" on ebay and you'll get plenty to choose from.
 
I'm on the fence here. Although I have a scale that is supposed to be accurate to .1 grams, I found that it's not really sensitive enough. It seems like it will get hung up on a number for a bit and then jump. It could be that mine is 0-500 grams. Maybe the range is too high to really be sensitive to .1 gram changes.
 

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