beer line length - is it possible to be too long? Oh, and a temperature question.

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heyjaffy

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I'm in the process of setting up a kegging system and ordered a kit from kegconnection.com and will hopefully be building this weekend. I've been reading this forum and am liking the idea of set-it-and-forget-it for carbing - carbing at the same pressure as serving pressure. The message that I'm getting is that 10' of line is the way to go to get a good pour.

* Is there any reason not to just hook up 12' of line? 15' of line?

** Bonus question: What temperature range do most of you set your kegerators/keezers at?
 
I have 10' lines on mine and it works great. If your serving a wheat beer 15' might be perfect, but for your run of the mill pale ale, the beer will still flow, just really slow. My keezer is around 40F +/-. Some like it warmer, some colder. It's where I like it. I'm a sipper usually so the beer has plenty of time to warm up in the glass. To simulate the long beer lines needed to get a wheat beer to pour without having one dedicated long line....try these.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/
 
The "ideal" setup is one that will balance the amount of applied pressure (psi) on the beer keg with the amount of static and dynamic resistance in pounds in the draft lines.

Static resistance is gravity. The distance from the keg itself to the point of dispense. A higher tap means more resistance in other words... approx .5 lb of pressure per foot. This also means the higher your tap is from the keg, the shorter the line need be.

Dynamic resistance is the combined resistance of all the tubing etc. 3/16" vinyl line provides 3 lbs. of resistance per foot of tubing.

You might have around 14 psi on your keg to maintain carbonation, in that case you would need only 4-5 feet of 3/16" line to get an ideal pour.
If you used 10', you'd be giving 30 lbs. of resistance. It would work, but just slower than ideal as said above.

These formulas are the industry standards written by the Brewers Association. I had to do all kinds of balancing to set up our pub's 35 foot long-draw system.

Hehe, just had to throw out the super-nerdy explanation, just move on to the next post... :p
 
I don't have a single line over 6 ft, and always have good foam free pours @ 42F, because I do mostly ales, my psi is in the 10-12 range. If you go with 15 ft of line, be patient, you'll be standing in front of the keezer for a while.


_
 
It seems like there is no right answer for this. Just get 12 feet and cut it until you have the length that works for you. I have been researching this for a while and came to the conclusion that a feet per PSI is what the average is. So for your normal ale/lager, 10 to 12psi with around 10 to 12 feet of line works well.

Some people use 5 feet of line with no probably and some use 15+ with no problem. It all depends on your liking.

I have used multiple calculators to balance the system I'm building and some said 3 feet and with the same numbers on another calc, it said 6 feet. I did another calculation and the calculator said 2 feet but the distance from my keg to the shank was 4 feet so that was impossible.

Like I said, get 12 feet of line and try that. If you don't like it, cut 6 inches off and try again. Repeat until you have the pour you like.
 
So do I understand this correctly: shorter lines mean faster pour and more foam, longer lines mean slower pour and less foam?
 
So do I understand this correctly: shorter lines mean faster pour and more foam, longer lines mean slower pour and less foam?

Only half right. Shorter does mean faster, not foamier. If you don't shake, rattle and roll your kegs at high psi's, they won't get overcarbed and foam.


_
 
Just get 10' and don't overthink it. I finally replaced the 5' lines in my kegerator and it made all the difference. Tried *everything* else first because I was lazy. Dumb.
 
My system ran great with 10 foot lines at 12psi, however... I have noticed with ALL beverage tubing I have used that they add a plastic taste to my beer. Now it isn't super noticeable, almost barely and I was looking for it, but fill that tube with water and let it sit for a few hours and then taste. Horrid. Even with the high end bev line. I believe 5 foot of 3/16 holds 1 ounce in the lines, so you can imagine how bad my 30' soda water lines tasted. 6 oz of plastic taste.

Trying out the epoxy tubes now with 4' of hose on the soda and it helps sooo much.

So even though you may not taste those 2 ounces of tainted beer in a pint from the 10 foot tube, they are changing the flavor of your beer, I guarantee it, unless you use barrier tubing.

I have used at least 5 types of tubing and all have a bad plastic taste on soda water with 30' line. So it has to be there in any length changing flavors.

So I recommend barrier or using epoxy mixers or 1/4 icemaker hose or something, to keep your lines as SHORT as possible.
 
So even though you may not taste those 2 ounces of tainted beer in a pint from the 10 foot tube, they are changing the flavor of your beer, I guarantee it, unless you use barrier tubing.

Given the literally thousands of homebrewers who don't share this problem with perceiving plastic off flavors from their keg lines, it's unlikely OP will be in the very small minority who do.

Drinking foamy, flat beer because I didn't want to futz with some hose clamps was a much bigger issue in terms of how I enjoy my beer.
 
Given the literally thousands of homebrewers who don't share this problem with perceiving plastic off flavors from their keg lines, it's unlikely OP will be in the very small minority who do.

Drinking foamy, flat beer because I didn't want to futz with some hose clamps was a much bigger issue in terms of how I enjoy my beer.

Not what I was saying. I mentioned that most probably don't taste it. As I really don't with beer. I do taste it with 30' of water in the hose, which means the liquid in the tube is getting a flavor change.

For the truly anal that like their beer tasting exactly how it was brewed I was giving a heads up.

There's no way the plastic taste leeches only to water and not beer. Adding more hose is just the quick fix. barrier tubing, epoxy mixers in the dip tube or icemaker hose in the dip tube are better options.
 
Heyjaffey, have you started your build yet? I still have the one Keg of Kolsch in mine. It has been conditioning for 1 week at 40 degrees. I need to go get my CO2 this week sometime. I want to wait about 3 weeks of cold conditioning before I drink the Kolsch so if I hook up the CO2 midweek then wait 10 days for carbonation that should be just right.

Anyway, like I said before you might just try the lines that came from Kegconnections before buying 10 ft lines. Lots of folks are getting along fine with 5 ft of line so you should make sure you have a problem before trying to solve it;). I'll let you know how I'm doing with the standard lines, but like I said it will probably be another 2 weeks or so.
 
I mentioned that most probably don't taste it. As I really don't with beer.

Exactly, so that's why the alarmist stuff isn't -- in my opinion -- all that helpful. People who are just getting into kegging have other things to worry about without freaking over the composition of their taplines.

Again, in my opinion, it's a very RDWHAHB issue.

An unbalanced system and perpetually foamy pours will, on the other hand, drive a man into insanity. Nothing worse than a great beer undone by a terrible pour.

Cheers.
 
Exactly, so that's why the alarmist stuff isn't -- in my opinion -- all that helpful. People who are just getting into kegging have other things to worry about without freaking over the composition of their taplines.

Again, in my opinion, it's a very RDWHAHB issue.

An unbalanced system and perpetually foamy pours will, on the other hand, drive a man into insanity. Nothing worse than a great beer undone by a terrible pour.

Cheers.

You're right. I get anal about every little thing in this hobby because I'm still a bit new to it. I was dissapointed to buy 100' box of costly bev line, only to have it takes like crap at 30' lengths. The epoxy mixer sticks were much much cheaper and even easier to work with than 30' of hose. Maybe I'll go have a few homebrews and work on relaxing.
 
Heyjaffey, have you started your build yet? ...
Anyway, like I said before you might just try the lines that came from Kegconnections before buying 10 ft lines. Lots of folks are getting along fine with 5 ft of line so you should make sure you have a problem before trying to solve it;). I'll let you know how I'm doing with the standard lines, but like I said it will probably be another 2 weeks or so.

I have everything ready to go but need to put it all together - hope to get that this week. I bought some extra beer line because it was cheap, along with a couple extra connectors - this way I'll be able to keep the 5 foot lines in working order if I want to use them, but will have a 10 and 12 footer on deck in case I want to increase the pressure. One of the beers I have fermenting is a wheat which I understand needs a bit more carbonation. I'll be putting some pics up of my keezer build soon and report on beer line length when I have a chance to experiment.
 
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned serving temperature at all yet. I was taught that a proper pour comes from a combination of serving temp, serving pressure, and line length. I personally have 5' beer lines with my serving temp at 34F and serving pressure at 11.5 psi. Perfect pours every time.
 
I thought most kept theirs around 40 and some even closer to 50? Always thought 34 for was bud light in the summer hehe.

I agree temp definitely has a role. The colder it comes out, the less foam it would make as it goes through a warmer area.
 
Heyjaffey, have you started your build yet? I still have the one Keg of Kolsch in mine. It has been conditioning for 1 week at 40 degrees. I need to go get my CO2 this week sometime. I want to wait about 3 weeks of cold conditioning before I drink the Kolsch so if I hook up the CO2 midweek then wait 10 days for carbonation that should be just right.

Anyway, like I said before you might just try the lines that came from Kegconnections before buying 10 ft lines. Lots of folks are getting along fine with 5 ft of line so you should make sure you have a problem before trying to solve it;). I'll let you know how I'm doing with the standard lines, but like I said it will probably be another 2 weeks or so.

I have two brews in the keezer now - temp contoller set around 40

- an amber wheat that I carbed to style (actually low end of the wheat style) have pressure set at 20 PSI - with the 5 ft. line the beer came out like a rocket and foamed a lot, not too much, but a lot. I made a 10 ft. line and it's better, but I could probably go with 12 or more, as it still comes out quite fast. I'll probably always have a wheat on tap, so I'll likely get around to making another longer line.

- an ESB, which I also carbed to style (high side of english ale style) have set around 7 or 8 PSI - with the 5 ft. line the beer comes out pretty darn slow. It has such light carbonation that it barely makes a head at all (though I have Perlick 575's with creamer that helps there)

I'll probably be replacing the ESB with an IPA when it kicks, which I'll carb around 12 - 13 PSI I think, we'll see what works there, and I'll definitely otherwise rotate wheats and english ales (bitters or milds) the rest of the time, so I can see myself needing 3 different line lengths.
 
I have two brews in the keezer now - temp contoller set around 40

- an amber wheat that I carbed to style (actually low end of the wheat style) have pressure set at 20 PSI - with the 5 ft. line the beer came out like a rocket and foamed a lot, not too much, but a lot. I made a 10 ft. line and it's better, but I could probably go with 12 or more, as it still comes out quite fast. I'll probably always have a wheat on tap, so I'll likely get around to making another longer line.

- an ESB, which I also carbed to style (high side of english ale style) have set around 7 or 8 PSI - with the 5 ft. line the beer comes out pretty darn slow. It has such light carbonation that it barely makes a head at all (though I have Perlick 575's with creamer that helps there)

I'll probably be replacing the ESB with an IPA when it kicks, which I'll carb around 12 - 13 PSI I think, we'll see what works there, and I'll definitely otherwise rotate wheats and english ales (bitters or milds) the rest of the time, so I can see myself needing 3 different line lengths.

i'm surprised the wheat is even pour-able - I had one at 20psi on 10ft of line and it was 1/2 foam. 15ft is best for 20psi.

7psi should work good for 5ft. it shouldn't pour that slow, about 1.5 oz per second. it should be really light carb and there should just be a thin layer of bubbles and not a built-up head. sounds like thats working well for you.

here's the line calc, copied from someone i can't remember:

l = 1800*(d^5/Q^2)*(p-0.44h),

where:
l = hose length (ft)
d = hose ID (in)
Q = flow rate (gpm)
p = gage pressure of barrel (psi)
h = height difference between middle of keg and faucet (ft)

So if you've got a keg that you'd like at 12psi, the faucet is 2ft above the middle of the keg, you're using 3/16" tubing, and you'd like a flow rate of 0.7gpm:

l = 1800*(0.1875^5/0.7²)*(12-0.44*2) = 9.5ft.

(If the faucet is above the keg, h is positive; if the keg is above the faucet, h is negative.)
 
wondering if OP got his question about too long line answered

Sent from my iPhone using HB Talk
 
why 10' lines? longer the line the better?

It's far easier to trim down a line that is too long than extend one that is too short. I started mine with 12 feet each and ended up trimming them down to about 9.
 
If you aren't using the swizzle stick things, 4 feet of line isn't gonna cut it if you are serving at 10-12 PSI like most of us are. I carb and serve at 12 and needed more than 4 feet of line. I need at least 9 feet of line to avoid foaming with my set up.

If you have a balanced system and you don't need the length it's not a big deal, but if you are having foam issues its best to start with a long line and trim it down.
 
The problem with 5psi is if you want a beer with more carbonation. You'll have to bump up the pressure when not tapping, and bleed it down when you do. Otherwise, your beer will slowly go flat / your pressure will increase as co2 outgasses from solution.

It was what we did for a pony of local IPA once before we built a kegerator. We had a party tap, and switched the air pump to co2, but still had the 3' tap tube/faucet it came with. Ran it at 5psi and had no problems that night. By the next day, the beer was pretty much flat.



And a threadjack-- sorry.
This is our 4th homebrew keg, and the first one with extreme foaming issues. I'm running 8ft of 3/16", with about half a foot of increase in elevation. Theoretically, it should be fine up to 15psi. But for this keg, I just can't get it to pour without insane foam. As soon as I stop pouring, I'll open the kegerator and see that co2 is outgassing from where it comes out of the tap (it's a perlick tap, with the beer out the top, and co2 in the side). Within a minute, I'll have about a foot or so of co2 at the first run of the hose, and about half a foot of co2 at the hose by the faucet shank.

Do note this beer was an emergency St. Patty's day brew. Low ABV with the idea to wreck it with a few people in one night. Nottingham yeast, 2 days fermentation, 1.5 days force carbonation in the keg fridge at 50psi and 36'f. It's been a couple of days since then, and I've purged it quite a few times, and it seems to be at 10psi without creeping up now (can hear co2 running through the system as soon as I purge). Same idea. I gave a quick rinse before the keg went live, and just now, took everything apart and did a more thorough cleaning. Same deal. Instant outgassing out the coupler.
 
And a threadjack-- sorry.

1.5 days force carbonation in the keg fridge at 50psi and 36'f. It's been a couple of days since then, and I've purged it quite a few times, and it seems to be at 10psi without creeping up now (can hear co2 running through the system as soon as I purge). Same idea. I gave a quick rinse before the keg went live, and just now, took everything apart and did a more thorough cleaning. Same deal. Instant outgassing out the coupler.

It's way overcarbed. 50 psi at 36 degrees for 1.5 days would make it WAY overcarbed. Just keep purging and turn the gas off of it until it's better.

That's one of the major disadvantages of "burst carbing" when you're in a hurry. Overcarbed beer that will take a while to get right again.
 
At 5 psi, don't you have flat beer? Mine is at 12 psi at 40 degrees.

I've been setting my ESB between 5 and 8 psi, which is appropriate if you follow the style guide, even possibly overcarbed pending temp. The beer is not flat, but it is very lightly carbed.
 
I've been setting my ESB between 5 and 8 psi, which is appropriate if you follow the style guide, even possibly overcarbed pending temp. The beer is not flat, but it is very lightly carbed.

That makes sense. I usually have IPAs and APAs on tap and currently a Bohemian pilsner. I like a much higher carb level for those beers.
 
Reviving an old thread...

Great read everyone. I just replaced my standard faucets with some Perlick 525s and after enjoying months of foamless beer, I have a snowstorm in a glass.

I'll start with 12' lines and take it down until it works again.

And here I was thinking I didn't like Perlicks. GASP!!


B
 
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