MalFet's bottle washer for lazy homebrewers

Ok, returned that pump and got the one on the link at the top of the page. it works much better, but i still only get maybe 12 inches or so of flow, not nearly what your getting. I am going to try to increase the hose to 3/4 and see if that helps.

everything else seems the same, not sure why mine is less then yours...

still , i can see how much of a time saver this is going to be.

Do you have any issues with pumping PBW or anything through the pump?

wyowolf said:

Ok, returned that pump and got the one on the link at the top of the page. it works much better, but i still only get maybe 12 inches or so of flow, not nearly what your getting. I am going to try to increase the hose to 3/4 and see if that helps.

everything else seems the same, not sure why mine is less then yours...

still , i can see how much of a time saver this is going to be.

Do you have any issues with pumping PBW or anything through the pump?

Click to expand...

Glad to hear it's working! Twelve inches should be plenty of flow. The mechanism here isn't blasting gunk off with physical pressure, but rather eroding it with a heavy flow of water. With enough time, I've found this is as or more effective than the jet washers.

In any case, there are a number of things that could effect the height of the stream coming out of the nozzles. If your copper diameter is slightly larger, for example, you'll have equivalent flow but less height. Alternately, if you're getting constriction from your fittings anywhere along the way, this could be restricting your net flow.

I've had no problem with PBW, though I get a fair bit of foaming with StarSan. It's never been a problem for me, but if you start overflowing your sink you could use SaniClean or another non-foaming sanitizer. I can't say for certain that the chemicals don't shorten the life of the pump. I've used mine thirty times or so now and it's still going strong. I also take comfort in the fact that these pumps are designed to pump filthy water out of flooded basements.

Keep us posted on how it's working for you!

On the to-do list.

For the all copper version people might investigate hot water radiant flooring copper manifolds. They'll be more cost than cpvc but potentially cheaper than fabrication from a bunch of t fittings.

I use brass garden hose quick disconnects on my other keg & cornie washers. Seems like a great opportunity to add cost to a simple build.

Interesting.

This is freaking awesome! My main reason for going to kegs was cleaning bottles. I still have TONS of bottles that seem to want something in them and this would greatly help. Great job!

This looks awesome and I think I will build one, but is there any concern about the pump seal leaking and getting grease from the motor bearing in the water?

fork said:

This looks awesome and I think I will build one, but is there any concern about the pump seal leaking and getting grease from the motor bearing in the water?

Click to expand...

That's a good question. I ran a lot of water through the pump before I used it, and now I don't notice any oil sheens on the top of my reservoir after recirculating water. Anything else I should be looking for?

If I'd seen this a couple years ago, I might have kept bottling and not started putting together a keezer. Looks like there's a Harbor Freight pump that might work: http://www.harborfreight.com/14-horsepower-clear-water-pump-with-float-switch-68486.html It's only rated to 1200 GPH, though. I'm also thinking if I build this, I'll adapt it to a square milk crate that can be had locally, rather than shelling out 2/3 again as much for shipping as the rectangular crate costs.

Just for reference, a standard square crate will fit 25 bottles, plan on building one this weekend.

subscribed. Nice build. Thanks for sharing.

I'm thinking about doing this in pex or copper to avoid the jb weld. Pex would be easier but I'm thinking it may be hard or expensive to find 1/2 1/2 1/4 t's. We'll see when I get around to it.

Well, I gave it a shot and followed your directions as best I could. Unfortunately no one around here seems to carry the CPVC 1/2" cross piece. (Really?!?!). I also used 1.5" long pieces to join the cross pieces. which gave me nice even spacing in all directions. I also learned that 1/2" CPVC and 1/2" PVC are not even remotely the same size. Is one measured inside and one outside?

Anyhow, I need to get back to the store to pick up the right pieces to actually hook this up to my pump. Right now it is friction fit with a 3/4" PVC fitting going around the outside of the 1/2" CPVC T fitting. You will notice that due to no cross piece, I had to move were the assembly attaches to the water, which may the the source of one of my problems.

I have this pump:http://www.harborfreight.com/35-horsepower-dirty-water-pump-with-float-switch-69298.html, which is slightly more powerful than the one you used. However, as you can see in the pictures below, the results are underwhelming. One of the tubes has litterally nothing coming out, and the one next to it is not enough to get to the top of a bottle. I haven't used any JB Weld, or glued any joints yet, but they do not appear to be leaking to any significant degree.

Anyone have any thoughts on why this performance is so poor?

micahshaw said:

Anyone have any thoughts on why this performance is so poor?

Click to expand...

Hmm...I can't tell from your pictures, but it looks like your pipe chassis is significantly elevated above your water source and pump. Is that the case? How much vertical travel is there between the output of your pump and the base of the washer?

MalFet said:

How much vertical travel is there between the output of your pump and the base of the washer?

Click to expand...

It is resting on the top of a corny keg next to the bucket that the pump is in the bottom of. So, that much. (about 2.5 ft?) Once I get the proper coupling for a hose to hook it up, I will have it lowered about a foot, but I don't think it is going to make a huge difference. I know there are alot of ways to measure power on these pumps, and the one you have lists head of 25ft, where mine is only 19.7. But it seams like the real world difference between our setups is way more than just your pump maybe being a bit more powerful.

Also, just as a test, I put a bunch of bottles on mine to see if having bottles on all the other tubes created a little back pressure. It did not. Results were the same. And many of the other bottles were not being rinse properly because the stream was too weak to really hit the bottom of the bottle and spread out like it should.

-micah

micahshaw said:

It is resting on the top of a corny keg next to the bucket that the pump is in the bottom of. So, that much. (about 2.5 ft?) Once I get the proper coupling for a hose to hook it up, I will have it lowered about a foot, but I don't think it is going to make a huge difference. I know there are alot of ways to measure power on these pumps, and the one you have lists head of 25ft, where mine is only 19.7. But it seams like the real world difference between our setups is way more than just your pump maybe being a bit more powerful.

Click to expand...

I really suspect that's your problem. Your pump puts out 20% less pressure than mine at baseline, and then you've got an extra 2 1/2 feet of head. One of the comments in your pump's reviews specifically mentions a complete loss of pressure at only 3 feet of vertical push.

Beyond that, the only thing I can think of would be inline constriction somewhere. There's really not a lot to this device otherwise. If your power is low, it is almost certainly a problem with the pump.

What makes you say that you think there's something more to it than that?

MalFet said:

What makes you say that you think there's something more to it than that?

Click to expand...

This pump works great with my carboy washer, I thought it might actually launch my better bottle is had so much power (but the weight of the water trying to get out keeps it in place). But that is running through 3/4" PVC. The ID of this 1/2" CPVC may just be so much extra pressure that it ain't gonna work. Which is unfortunate since I bought that pump about 6 months ago, and can't return it now.

But I am tempted to go ahead and get that clearly superior (based on reviews) pump that you linked to. I wonder what the used sump pump market is around me looks like...

-micah

micahshaw said:

This pump works great with my carboy washer, I thought it might actually launch my better bottle is had so much power (but the weight of the water trying to get out keeps it in place). But that is running through 3/4" PVC. The ID of this 1/2" CPVC may just be so much extra pressure that it ain't gonna work. Which is unfortunate since I bought that pump about 6 months ago, and can't return it now.

But I am tempted to go ahead and get that clearly superior (based on reviews) pump that you linked to. I wonder what the used sump pump market is around me looks like...

-micah

Click to expand...

Yeah, unfortunately I think you'll just need a new pump. More than the diameter of the CPVC, the actual copper tubing itself is (I suspect) causing the lion's share of resistance. For this application, head pressure is probably a more important measurement than total flow. Thanks for posting, and let us know what happens! I'll edit the original post to include a warning about minimum head pressure.

Do you guys think this would work with a march or chugger pump?

fork said:

Do you guys think this would work with a march or chugger pump?

Click to expand...

Definitely not. Magnetic impeller pumps lose pressure very quickly on restriction.

MalFet said:

Definitely not. Magnetic impeller pumps lose pressure very quickly on restriction.

Click to expand...

Yes that is true, but the cross sectional are of all those little copper tubes is actually larger that a single 1/2 inch pipe that those pumps are normally used with. Though all of the turns and transitions in the manifold create losses. Do you think that this manifold would be more of a restriction than those pumps normally work with?

fork said:

Yes that is true, but the cross sectional are of all those little copper tubes is actually larger that a single 1/2 inch pipe that those pumps are normally used with. Though all of the turns and transitions in the manifold create losses. Do you think that this manifold would be more of a restriction than those pumps normally work with?

Click to expand...

I just tested it out with my march pump. It works significantly better than I thought it would. Still, I wouldn't call it "working". The water clears about three inches above the spouts, though the ones towards the back get significantly less than that.

The total volume throughput is a fraction of what I get with the submersible. I wouldn't trust it, personally, but feel free to give it a go!

Wow that was fast. Thanks for checking!

This is an outstanding idea. Well done!!!!! :rockin:

I love this idea, and went to the store last night to get the parts. They didn't have specifically what I wanted so I'm playing around with a couple of ideas. I've made a few modifications to give a more finished look, and in the end think it will hold up better over time. I'm still using CPVC as it's dirt cheap, and pretty durable, however I will not be drilling directly into the pipe.

First modification is that I'm making the washer larger than the crate (purchased for $4 from lowes and holds 29 bottles snuggly in place) so that I can top load the washer, flip the crate and wash, then move the washer to another crate without having to move the bottles. I bottle 2-3 5G batches at a time so will need to wash ~150 bottles, this seems like an easier way of doing it.

The second modification is I'm using CPVC Tee's for each sprayer, it's more work, and more money, but I think it'll look nicer, and lend itself to more durability in the long run.

This is where it gets tricky. The Outside Diamter of CPVC is the same as Copper, so I'd planned on using 1/2" to 1/4" reducer fittings, and 1/4" Pex in place of the soft copper risers that are used here. The Big Box stores do not carry 30 reducers though, and short of going to a plumbing specialty store I have to fabricate it myself using Pex (which is, to steal a quote from another thread, cheaper than the aforementioned dirt.) My idea was to stub out of the Tee with 1/2" CPVC, then reduce down by cramming increasingly smaller Pex piping into itself (with the help of a swagging tool you can force 1/2" pex into CPVC, 3/8" pex into it, then the 1/4" pex risers into that, done correctly it looks fine, and the pressure prevents the need for further clue, and saves $25 in Copper fittings.) I put a prototype together last night and I haven't decided which route to go. Though the Pex method certainly works, I don't know that I want to do that 28 more times just to save $25, Plus, the Copper fittings would look way cleaner.

Anyhow, I should have it all together by this weekend as I'm planning on bottling 15 gallons of beer I have fermenting. I'm taking pictures as I go and will upload when completed. Awesome idea, and awesome little project. Cheers!

BarrelheadBrew said:

First modification is that I'm making the washer larger than the crate (purchased for $4 from lowes and holds 29 bottles snuggly in place) so that I can top load the washer, flip the crate and wash, then move the washer to another crate without having to move the bottles.

Click to expand...

This sounds like a good idea, but I got a few questions. I refused to spend $19 for the crates Malfet linked to (mainly because I hate spending more on shipping than on the product). My initial thought was to build a crate out of composite material. But Lowes didn't have the composite fencing planks, and their composite lumber was like $20 a piece, so that was also going to be pricey. I have been contemplating making something out of PVC pipes due to how cheap it is, but I haven't come up with a design that wouldn't look ghetto style. These crates from lowes sound like the solution, but I can't find them. Any advice? Do they have them online?

Second question, I don't know if I understand what you mean by top loading and flipping, etc. But I like the idea of having this built to fit where I already store the bottles. Then I could rinse, wash the labels off, and put the empties in a container. Come bottling day, I just use the bottle cleaner to clean and sanitize the insides of all the bottles right in their storage container. I don't want to buy them, but those http://homebrew.thefastrack.ca/ things they advertise on this board seem like they are just itching for something like this.

micah

ps. ordering a new pump today so I can get mine working.

micahshaw said:

This sounds like a good idea, but I got a few questions. I refused to spend $19 for the crates Malfet linked to (mainly because I hate spending more on shipping than on the product). My initial thought was to build a crate out of composite material. But Lowes didn't have the composite fencing planks, and their composite lumber was like $20 a piece, so that was also going to be pricey. I have been contemplating making something out of PVC pipes due to how cheap it is, but I haven't come up with a design that wouldn't look ghetto style. These crates from lowes sound like the solution, but I can't find them. Any advice? Do they have them online?

Click to expand...

I tried to track it down online, but couldn't find it... Even searched using the SKU #. I found the crate in the Home Organization department. There were quite a few of them, I'm actually probably going to go back and grab more because they fit perfectly side by side in the shelves I have. It'll be perfect to store them, clean them, sanitize, then bottle them all in the same crate.

micahshaw said:

Second question, I don't know if I understand what you mean by top loading and flipping, etc. But I like the idea of having this built to fit where I already store the bottles. Then I could rinse, wash the labels off, and put the empties in a container. Come bottling day, I just use the bottle cleaner to clean and sanitize the insides of all the bottles right in their storage container. I don't want to buy them, but those http://homebrew.thefastrack.ca/ things they advertise on this board seem like they are just itching for something like this.

micah

ps. ordering a new pump today so I can get mine working.

Click to expand...

The way this is originally shown, the crate is used as a holding device to stabilize the bottles as they go on top of the sprayer lines, and while in use (or that's how I'm seeing it.) I'm going to be storing all of my bottles in the crate, so I'd have to move them to a new crate to wash, then back to the original crate. My idea is to store the empties upright, then when the time comes to clean, put the cleaner on top of the storage crate (inserting the sprayers into the bottles that are already positioned) Flipping the whole thing upside down so that the cleaner becomes the bottom, and the crate of bottles is now resting on it. When I'm done flip it back over and remove the cleaner....

I hope that helps clarify. If i can track down that crate online I'll post a link here in a bit.

Well, I found the crate, but not on lowes... This link is more expensive but it shows the crate at least... http://www.amazon.com/United-Solutions-Large-Plastic-Storage/dp/B003TUV4OY/ref=pd_sim_hg_2

Turns out it's a filing crate. Not a milk crate. But it holds 29 bottles snugly, so it works for my purposes perfectly.

Feel like I'm high jacking this thread, so tell me to back off if I'm being uncouth, but I'm enjoying this build and wanted to share.. this is a side by side of the ideas i had.

On the right was my original idea. 1/4" pex 1/4 to 1/2 reducer fitting, 1/2" cpvc nipple into 1/2" tee.

On the left is what I'm going with... I cut 30 - 7" lengths of 1/4" pex & 1" lengths of 3/8" & 1/2" pex. Using a swagging tool i forced the 1/4" into the 3/8", then into the 1/2". This all fits into the tee perfectly. Takes about 5 minutes per, which isn't exactly an even trade considering the reducers are .40 each, but considering the difficulty in procuring the reducers, it'll have to do.

BarrelheadBrew said:

My idea is to store the empties upright, then when the time comes to clean, put the cleaner on top of the storage crate (inserting the sprayers into the bottles that are already positioned) Flipping the whole thing upside down so that the cleaner becomes the bottom, and the crate of bottles is now resting on it. When I'm done flip it back over and remove the cleaner....

Click to expand...

Ok, ya, thats what I thought. Your picture really makes that clear. I am thinking I might pull mine apart (not glued, probably won't ever be glued), and reconfigure it to fit my cheap ass wood crates I made from this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/how-make-beer-crate-12oz-beer-bottles-318788/

It will be reduced to 24 bottles at a time, but I think it should be super easy to store and clean bottles this way.

micah

Well that was a huge disappointment. I got the exact pump you recommended, hooked it up, and got exactly the same results as with my old pump. So, I made a new 3 foot hose that has one end that screws on to the pump, and the other end has a 1/2" CPVC pipe that will fit into one of the T junctions (this is not the hose in the picture, but as it turned out, they worked equally poorly). Then I removed one of the cross pieces, reducing the total number of copper tubes to 24. I also changed the design so one of my corner pieces is now a T fitting, and that is were I hooked up the pump. It got it to shoot about 4 inches up from most of the tubes. Its plausibly usable that way, but not even CLOSE to what you have going on. I thought maybe I was getting a bunch of loss from leakage (everything is just friction fit right now), but when I tip the cleaner so that the water is not crashing back down on to the frame, there is very little dripping. I really don't understand how yours works SOOO much better!

micahshaw said:

Well that was a huge disappointment. I got the exact pump you recommended, hooked it up, and got exactly the same results as with my old pump. So, I made a new 3 foot hose that has one end that screws on to the pump, and the other end has a 1/2" CPVC pipe that will fit into one of the T junctions (this is not the hose in the picture, but as it turned out, they worked equally poorly). Then I removed one of the cross pieces, reducing the total number of copper tubes to 24. I also changed the design so one of my corner pieces is now a T fitting, and that is were I hooked up the pump. It got it to shoot about 4 inches up from most of the tubes. Its plausibly usable that way, but not even CLOSE to what you have going on. I thought maybe I was getting a bunch of loss from leakage (everything is just friction fit right now), but when I tip the cleaner so that the water is not crashing back down on to the frame, there is very little dripping. I really don't understand how yours works SOOO much better!

Click to expand...

Hmm...that's frustrating. I can't really say what's happening here. I've got at least three feet of vertical. I'd expect to see a little bit of variation from construction to construction, but not this much.

This is a shot in the dark, but what kind of copper tubing are you using? The inner diameter of the stuff you've got looks much larger than mine, though it's hard to say for sure off of the pictures. If that's the case, you could try crimping the ends a bit to get a tighter (and thus more forceful) spray.

MalFet said:

This is a shot in the dark, but what kind of copper tubing are you using? The inner diameter of the stuff you've got looks much larger than mine, though it's hard to say for sure off of the pictures. If that's the case, you could try crimping the ends a bit to get a tighter (and thus more forceful) spray.

Click to expand...

I am using this stuff from lowes: http://www.lowes.com/pd_23051-76063-6363804795406_0__?productId=3132685&Ntt=copper+tubing+1%2F4&Ns=p_product_price|0

It does look in the pictures like yours is much smaller inner diameter. Its too bad this is the most expensive part (besides the pump I already replaced- lets hope Amazon will let me send it back!)

The copper tubing I have has 1/32" walls. Or to put it another way, it has an OD of 1/4" and an ID of 3/16".

But, on the good news front, when I took off the 5th set of tubes, the washer fits the crates I already made without any further modification. So if I can get this figured out, using it like BarrelheadBrew suggested should be a snap.

micah

micahshaw said:

I am using this stuff from lowes: http://www.lowes.com/pd_23051-76063-6363804795406_0__?productId=3132685&Ntt=copper+tubing+1%2F4&Ns=p_product_price|0

It does look in the pictures like yours is much smaller inner diameter. Its too bad this is the most expensive part (besides the pump I already replaced- lets hope Amazon will let me send it back!)

The copper tubing I have has 1/32" walls. Or to put it another way, it has an OD of 1/4" and an ID of 3/16".

But, on the good news front, when I took off the 5th set of tubes, the washer fits the crates I already made without any further modification. So if I can get this figured out, using it like BarrelheadBrew suggested should be a snap.

micah

Click to expand...

Sorry that you've ended up the guinea pig here. I should have expected snags when materials other than the exact ones I used came into the mix.

Anyway, my copper is significantly thicker than that. I busted out my calipers, and my ID is a mere 0.12", about two-thirds yours. I strongly suspect this is the source of the difference, as you've got about 2.5 times the total flow cross section that I do.

But, I don't think this is a big problem. If the water is hitting the bottom of the bottles and spreading out sufficiently, you're fine...in fact, probably even better off, since you're actually getting more total flow than I am. This thing doesn't work like a jet washer to chisel the gunk out but rather erodes it with large volumes of water. If, on the other hand, you're not getting good spread on the bottom of the bottles, simply pinching the ends a bit with a pair of pliers should work too.

Maybe it's friction loss.

Can you make due with a shorter hose that has less turns? Especially getting rid of what looks like a severe turn downward right out the discharge? Every turn causes a loss. It may only be a little, but it's some.

How turbulent is the water in the tub? Turbulent and aerated water doesn't pump as well as calmer water. Can you set it up so there is more water over the pump and then the discharge from the rack falls to a separate bucket? I don't know if there's a goal to reuse that water. If there is, pipe the two tubs together.

Zuljin said:

Maybe it's friction loss.

Can you make due with a shorter hose that has less turns?

Click to expand...

Ya, its not in the picture, but I made a much shorter hose that does not coil around in the tub. There was no difference what so ever in the result.

How turbulent is the water in the tub? Turbulent and aerated water doesn't pump as well as calmer water. Can you set it up so there is more water over the pump and then the discharge from the rack falls to a separate bucket? I don't know if there's a goal to reuse that water. If there is, pipe the two tubs together.

Click to expand...

Reusing the water is a must in this application, you want push a huge volume of warm oxyclean through the bottles to clean them, on the order of a few hundred gallons at least. However, when testing this I did have more water in the tub at times. And I did previously have it sitting in a separate bucket and not recycling the water. Again, no notable differences.

MalFet said:

Sorry that you've ended up the guinea pig here. I should have expected snags when materials other than the exact ones I used came into the mix.

Click to expand...

No worries, you were the real guinea pig. I am just glad you got it working so great the first time. I would have just suspected at this point that this wasn't really going to work if I hadn't seen yours already.

Anyway, my copper is significantly thicker than that. I busted out my calipers, and my ID is a mere 0.12", about two-thirds yours. I strongly suspect this is the source of the difference, as you've got about 2.5 times the total flow cross section that I do.

But, I don't think this is a big problem. If the water is hitting the bottom of the bottles and spreading out sufficiently, you're fine...in fact, probably even better off, since you're actually getting more total flow than I am. This thing doesn't work like a jet washer to chisel the gunk out but rather erodes it with large volumes of water. If, on the other hand, you're not getting good spread on the bottom of the bottles, simply pinching the ends a bit with a pair of pliers should work too.

Click to expand...

Yup, I think that's the issue. I have been considering using it as is- I wanted to switch it to do just the 24 anyway. The only issue I am having is that what I put a test bottle on and hold it, there is usually an area of the bottle that is NOT being washed. Someplace about halfway down the bottle it seems the water will split and there is an area that isn't being washed. Have you noticed this happening?

A part of me really wants to get new copper just to see for sure that this is really the issue.

Micah

I followed the OP's instructions when I built mine and generally had the same low flow results. I changed the hose between the pump and the rack to a 1" id and had considerably more flow from the nozzles. I think friction is the problem.

micahshaw said:

The only issue I am having is that what I put a test bottle on and hold it, there is usually an area of the bottle that is NOT being washed. Someplace about halfway down the bottle it seems the water will split and there is an area that isn't being washed. Have you noticed this happening?

Click to expand...

I was really concerned about that when I first built it, so I spent a lot of time with a flashlight trying to make sure I got even coverage. With enough flow, I get good coverage unless the bottles are really crooked. Just as a precaution, though, I give each bottle a 180º turn halfway through the wash process, but I really think this is overkill.

micahshaw said:

A part of me really wants to get new copper just to see for sure that this is really the issue.

Micah

Click to expand...

Hmm...I'd hate to see you spend the money before we know for sure what's going on. Did crimping the ends a bit not help?

joebab said:

I followed the OP's instructions when I built mine and generally had the same low flow results. I changed the hose between the pump and the rack to a 1" id and had considerably more flow from the nozzles. I think friction is the problem.

Click to expand...

Interesting. Thanks for experimenting with this. Like I said, I'm frustrated that not everyone's getting the same results I am, but at this point I can't say for sure which build differences are important and which aren't.

I use 1/2" hose, but it's silicon. My pump sits right under the washer, so I only need about 8" of straight line to get a connection. I'm no engineer, though, so I can't say for sure whether or how much this makes a difference.

Your results are reassuring, though. With a 1" hose, do you get enough spray to coat the inside of the bottles?

More flow than spray. I did pinch the ends of the tubing to get more of a spray, and it did improve the cleaning action and did seem to improve coverage inside the bottles. By pinching, I was able to get the stream to about 8 to 10 inches high.