All-grain setup needed for wild fermenting?

I'm totally new to beer brewing and decided that I want to try dabbling with wild-fermented beers before creating lab created beer :cross:.

My understanding is that we don't have to worry about sanitation with wild-fermentation, I was wondering how this relates to the equipment we need to do a wild-ferment?

Yes you still have to worry about sanitation with wild fermentation...all beer begins with cleaning your equipment and sanitizing anything that will come into contact with the beer post boil. If you were to ferment with the critters that are in the ambient air you would be very lucky to get something that was worth drinking. So, you are still concerned with what bugs are getting into the wort. You will also want to segregate your wild beer fermentation and bottling/kegging equipment from your normal equipment.

But, before all of that, I would recommend you solidify your knowledge and experience with breweing ales and then read Wild Brews (not the best book in the world, but a good primer for playing with bugs) and then dive in.

IMO, you're going about it backwards. As already mentioned, get a good experience baseline with proper methods and good ingredients before you try to use wild yeast to ferment something.

BTW, just because you get the yeast from a professional lab, doesn't make it a bad thing. If anything it's many fold better than what you might get for wild yeast. With wild, you'll have NO idea what you're getting (at best, you'll have a guess). With the yeast you buy, you KNOW what you're getting. With this knowledge, you can ferment the beer in the right temperature range, know what it's capabilities are (attenuation level, etc.) what flavors you'll get from it, and so much more. With wild yeast, you're rolling the dice on all of it.

Personally, I'd rather not risk dumping a batch over that factor. Especially if you're just starting out and going with an extract batch. You run the very real possibility of tossing $30-$50 right out the window (for a 5 gallon batch) along with the hardware you use to ferment it.

Learn to crawl before you walk. Learn to walk before you run, Learn to run before you try a marathon. Don't go from nothing to a marathon. IMO, pretty much what you're thinking of doing here.

Golddiggie said:

Learn to crawl before you walk. Learn to walk before you run, Learn to run before you try a marathon. Don't go from nothing to a marathon. IMO, pretty much what you're thinking of doing here.

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On the flip side, the fact that he went from, holy crap I can make alcohol to, I'm going to make a lambic in no time flat makes me think he is taking his first steps into a lifetime of brewing.

Bensiff said:

On the flip side, the fact that he went from, holy crap I can make alcohol to, I'm going to make a lambic in no time flat makes me think he is taking his first steps into a lifetime of brewing.

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IMO, most people are either going to do it for the rest of their lives, or they're not going to do it more than ~6 months. If you pass the 6 month point, and still enjoy doing it, you're pretty much in for good.

I do think he should at least brew a few batches before going to the wild side of things. Otherwise, he could get too frustrated with not having anything happen. Or get even more frustrated over substandard results.

I'm not afraid to experience failures and have the patience of a German Monk .

I'm not looking for instant gratification either. I want to learn. I don't see why I shouldn't start on the wild side, if that is my goal in the end anyways. Lead the way!

Sanitation is still a must. Basic brewing practices are a must.

You can brew sours with extract.


I can't seem to figure out why you would 'hone' your craft on a beer that takes at least a year to see results. Not that you can't, it just that you won't learn anything until that first beer is done.

AmandaK said:

Sanitation is still a must. Basic brewing practices are a must.

You can brew sours with extract.


I can't seem to figure out why you would 'hone' your craft on a beer that takes at least a year to see results. Not that you can't, it just that you won't learn anything until that first beer is done.

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A year is the firm timeline for a sour beer?

golddiggie said:

Learn to crawl before you walk. Learn to walk before you run, Learn to run before you try a marathon. Don't go from nothing to a marathon. IMO, pretty much what you're thinking of doing here.

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To the OP, I'm also somebody who is pretty aggressively stepping it up to sours. I've made maybe a dozen batches, and 3 of those were 10 years ago. And now I've started doing sours, because those are really the beers I love (and they're expensive as all getout to buy, so the savings are amazing!)

But Golddiggie and AmandaK have good points. Sours take years to mature. So if you make a bad batch now (which you probably will do if you ignore sanitation), then you'll have been wasting a fermenter for months/years while it developed. So you probably want to tread carefully.

beernewb71 said:

I'm not looking for instant gratification either. I want to learn. I don't see why I shouldn't start on the wild side, if that is my goal in the end anyways. Lead the way!

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I'm not going to dissuade you from brewing sours. Go for it. Try to get a rotation going of sours so that in 18-months or 3-years you can have a regular new sour coming up. But expect that those first ones are going to suck a little. (Northern Brewer has some extract kits that are good to start)

To help with that, brew some other beers in between to get some practice. You'll improve your methods, temperatures, sanitation, etc. to and your later sours will benefit from it.

You can also mix in some of the shortcuts to sours:

* If you do manage to go all-grain (it's not that hard or expensive if you batch sparge), you can do a nice no-boil berlinner weisse that will be ready in a few months.
* You could try a sour mash. (CO2 is not a requirement, but seems strongly recommended. From my research these can go very wrong)
* You can explore 100% brett ales (ales brewed with wild yeast, isolated from their partners in crime). These don't often turn up sour, but can be unusual. They also ferment in about the usual time.

So, I'd encourage you to follow the beers you're passionate about, but in parallel do some of the more mundane brews to develop your skills.

beernewb71 said:

A year is the firm timeline for a sour beer?

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Unless you take a shortcut (berlinner, sour mash, 100% brett), a traditional sour takes at minimum 12 months to develop. You should expect 18-36 months before bottling, from what I've read.

beernewb71 said:

A year is the firm timeline for a sour beer?

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How patient ARE you??? :cross:

I've got meads that have been in process for over a year. I had a wee heavy in process for almost a fully year. For me, it's not that much trouble. For you, well...

I'm patient...I haven't fermented any kind of alcohol yet but I do have experience with other ferments (sauerkraut, hot sauce, sourdough).

I will heed the advice to make other styles of beer while I'm waiting but I still have a couple questions (your patience is appreciated).

1) From what I've read people here seem to be trying to capture wild yeast in the air or from malt extract left out. To me it would make more sense to take whole barely, unhulled, grind it up into a flour and create a liquid sourdough starter. Then you would have a guaranteed inoculant, though still wild.

2) I will take your words for it but why is sanitation such a big deal? Other types of fermentation don't stress on sanitation because the lactic acid bacteria produce lactic acid which acts as a preservative and keeps the bad guys out.

3) This is the process, simplified without beer terminology, in my head:
-Take cracked malted grain and hops, steep them at specific temperatures for specific times.
-Rinse the grain of residual sugars.
-Filter the wort of hops/grains
-Cool wort
-Add barley starter
-Put in carboy

What am I missing?

Thanks again for all the guidance.

monkeybox said:

Unless you take a shortcut (berlinner, sour mash, 100% brett), a traditional sour takes at minimum 12 months to develop. You should expect 18-36 months before bottling, from what I've read.

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Now is this true? My homebrew club chief said he was able to make a guese (sp?) in about 8 months, just short of 9.

TacoTony said:

Now is this true? My homebrew club chief said he was able to make a guese (sp?) in about 8 months, just short of 9.

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A gueuze is a blend of old and young lambic. Usually 2-3 year old and 1 year old. So making a blend of old and young in 8 months doesn't add up.

To the OP: I myself have only been brewing since the end of May. Granted in the short time I have done ~13 batches (can't remember off hand). Also I have done a Hard Cider and my most recent brew was a Flanders Red which I plan to age atleast a year.

I have mixed feelings about your question. When I started I jumped straight away into AG brewing and was told it was too ambitious (Check my threads)... Long story short I made one of the best IPA's I'd ever had. Having said that, my confidence, skill and knowledge has increased atleast ten fold since then.

So, on one hand I say go for it! Worst case scenario you throw 30-40 bucks at an awesome experiment, that with enough research and effort, may end up with a surprisingly pleasent end result (or end up as drain food). On the other hand, I agree with everyone else that learning the brewing process and what works best for you and your new brewing system first will undoubtedly help to increase your chance of success. Trust me I had as many questions as I did answers after my first two brews.

So either way, you will probably want to brew some simpler more instantly gratifying recipes in the near future, so why not start with them? Either way good luck, and happy brewing!

TacoTony: Maybe you are thinking of a gose? From what I have read those are much faster, like a berlinner weisse?

I made a mead that took 3 years to be decent, finally tastes great at 6 years. I can't imagine starting out in wine making doing this as my first ferment.

I might suggest starting with something simpler for your first brew, even if it is all grain, just to get a few brews under your belt. Make some beer until you are comfortable with your system before jumping into something that take a long time investment. My first brew was extract, and it felt too much like a simple baking recipe, and I moved to all-grain for my second brew. While it wasn't complicated, there was a learning curve in just learning my system, my equipment, getting the right gravity for my wort, etc. Enough that I definitely wouldn't want it to be something that I could not taste for 12+ months.

My suggestion would be to get your system down, then take some more ambitious steps. Of course, I could be wrong.

IMO, if you want to mess with a wild fermentation on your first batch, then make it a 3qt batch in a gallon fermenter. Get some kind of fruit that hasn't been cleaned or sprayed with anything nasty and drop it in. Give it plenty of O2 and see what happens.

beernewb71 said:

I'm patient...I haven't fermented any kind of alcohol yet but I do have experience with other ferments (sauerkraut, hot sauce, sourdough).

I will heed the advice to make other styles of beer while I'm waiting but I still have a couple questions (your patience is appreciated).

1) From what I've read people here seem to be trying to capture wild yeast in the air or from malt extract left out. To me it would make more sense to take whole barely, unhulled, grind it up into a flour and create a liquid sourdough starter. Then you would have a guaranteed inoculant, though still wild.

2) I will take your words for it but why is sanitation such a big deal? Other types of fermentation don't stress on sanitation because the lactic acid bacteria produce lactic acid which acts as a preservative and keeps the bad guys out.

3) This is the process, simplified without beer terminology, in my head:
-Take cracked malted grain and hops, steep them at specific temperatures for specific times.
-Rinse the grain of residual sugars.
-Filter the wort of hops/grains
-Cool wort
-Add barley starter
-Put in carboy

What am I missing?

Thanks again for all the guidance.

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You don't steep the hops. After you steep(mash) the grain and rinse(sparge) them you bring the wort to a boil and add hops then.

Lushife said:

You don't steep the hops. After you steep(mash) the grain and rinse(sparge) them you bring the wort to a boil and add hops then.

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Thanks for the correction!

cadillacandy said:

A gueuze is a blend of old and young lambic. Usually 2-3 year old and 1 year old. So making a blend of old and young in 8 months doesn't add up.

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Oh, OK. Maybe it was the lambic part I heard. Can you do a lambic in 9 months, or is a year really the limit?

TacoTony said:

Oh, OK. Maybe it was the lambic part I heard. Can you do a lambic in 9 months, or is a year really the limit?

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You can do a lambic in 9 months - but it will be really boring and lifeless.

I have quite a few lambics going. I bottled half of one batch at 15 months and the other half at 25 months - the one bottled at 25 months is MUCH MUCH better.

beernewb71 said:

1) From what I've read people here seem to be trying to capture wild yeast in the air or from malt extract left out. To me it would make more sense to take whole barely, unhulled, grind it up into a flour and create a liquid sourdough starter. Then you would have a guaranteed inoculant, though still wild.

2) I will take your words for it but why is sanitation such a big deal? Other types of fermentation don't stress on sanitation because the lactic acid bacteria produce lactic acid which acts as a preservative and keeps the bad guys out.

3) This is the process, simplified without beer terminology, in my head:
-Take cracked malted grain and hops, steep them at specific temperatures for specific times.
-Rinse the grain of residual sugars.
-Filter the wort of hops/grains
-Cool wort
-Add barley starter
-Put in carboy

What am I missing?

Thanks again for all the guidance.

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1) You never know what you are going to get with wild yeast. Most people who try it, make small starters first to see whether it will attenuate sufficiently, and find out what it smells and tastes like before using.

Wild yeast will not make a sour beer if that is what you are after.

2) There are some things you don't want in your wort, certain molds, botulism, etc. These bacteria love wort and multiply much faster than yeast. Sanitation knocks the number of undesirable cells down to very low numbers to allow the yeast to start creating alcohol before they get to sufficient quantities to ruin the beer.

3) Try it. It won't be a year long experiment. You will be throwing it out after a few days because the house will wreak ...... or, if you are married, your wife could be throwing you out.

Before embarking on some experiment, try doing a beer normally, to see how it should be done. Then challenge the norm.

I'd suggest making a simple Pale Ale to start. Once you are OK with the process, then try a sour; use a simple recipe, low hops, use a decent yeast and toss in the dregs of some sours, or use a commercial blend from White Labs or Wyeast.

TacoTony said:

Oh, OK. Maybe it was the lambic part I heard. Can you do a lambic in 9 months, or is a year really the limit?

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I rack some of my sours onto fruit at 8 months. Decently sour. Yes you can do it in 8 or 9 months, but it still has a lot more it can do; The Brett has only just reached it max population around that time and has a lot more work to do, and the Lacto and Pedio are still building their populations.

Calder said:

1) You never know what you are going to get with wild yeast. Most people who try it, make small starters first to see whether it will attenuate sufficiently, and find out what it smells and tastes like before using.

Wild yeast will not make a sour beer if that is what you are after.

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I understand that the yeast do not create the sour. Which is why I suggested creating a barely sourdough starter, which is a symbiotic culture of wild yeast and lactic acid bacteria.

Calder said:

2) There are some things you don't want in your wort, certain molds, botulism, etc. These bacteria love wort and multiply much faster than yeast. Sanitation knocks the number of undesirable cells down to very low numbers to allow the yeast to start creating alcohol before they get to sufficient quantities to ruin the beer.

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Botulism needs an environment devoid of oxygen in order to survive, so it is not possible for botulism to grow in wort. Molds are bad but again if you immediately inoculate the wort with the barely sourdough starter, the lactic acid bacteria should drop the pH and create the acid to kill anything that tries to invade while the yeast are producing alcohol.

Calder said:

3) Try it. It won't be a year long experiment. You will be throwing it out after a few days because the house will wreak ...... or, if you are married, your wife could be throwing you out.

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Thanks for the warning .

beernewb71 said:

Molds are bad but again if you immediately inoculate the wort with the barely sourdough starter, the lactic acid bacteria should drop the pH and create the acid to kill anything that tries to invade while the yeast are producing alcohol.

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Lactobacillus has a lag phase, and that can be quite significant. On the few occasions I have made Berliner Weisse, it has been a few days at 100 F before the lacto seems to get going. At room temperature it will take longer. Don't count on the PH being there early to stop growth of bacteria. That's why if you just toss some grains in some wort it is going to smell like vomit; clostridium is going to get working on the wort before the lacto gets established.

Maybe it would be more practical then to get some wheat malt extract, and do this fermentation in a simple container to get an idea of how this would play out.

Get the book Art of Fermentation by Sandor Katz. It has a whole chapter on the wild fermentation of beer, and has some recipes for sorghum beer and opaque barley beer that can be made from start to finish in a week or two. A true European style lambic does take a long time, but lots of non-western cultures have been making quickly fermented beers with various grains for centuries. Plus, they are super healthy as they are probiotic if consumed soon and full of B vitamins caused by the process.

beernewb71 said:

Maybe it would be more practical then to get some wheat malt extract, and do this fermentation in a simple container to get an idea of how this would play out.

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"Radical Brewing" by Randy Mosher has a bunch wild yeast recipes, some of which do not need to be aged. You should check it out for some of the historical beer precusors too, it seems like you enjoy the simpler uncontrolled processes...

That being said, I still think a random culture harvest will let you down... Yeast wrangling seems to be 94% luck, 5% supidity, and 1% skill. I would hate to see you dump your first batch.

michaell said:

Get the book Art of Fermentation by Sandor Katz. It has a whole chapter on the wild fermentation of beer, and has some recipes for sorghum beer and opaque barley beer that can be made from start to finish in a week or two. A true European style lambic does take a long time, but lots of non-western cultures have been making quickly fermented beers with various grains for centuries. Plus, they are super healthy as they are probiotic if consumed soon and full of B vitamins caused by the process.

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Sandor Katz is an idiot. I try not to make statements like that on here since HBT is a friendly place, but I can't help it. I had the misfortune of being at a workshop where he was a presenter and he's a moron. He kept talking about how refrigerators are evil fermentation stopping devices while wearing too short cut off jeans with his sack hanging out.

TNGabe said:

Sandor Katz is an idiot. I try not to make statements like that on here since HBT is a friendly place, but I can't help it. I had the misfortune of being at a workshop where he was a presenter and he's a moron. He kept talking about how refrigerators are evil fermentation stopping devices while wearing too short cut off jeans with his sack hanging out.

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Hot.

give it a shot and let us know how it turns out. lacto doesn't play very well with hops, so a minimal amount (generally no more than 10 IBU) is recommended. I've read threads where people used sourdough bread starters for beer with decent results, so it's doable (in theory). be prepared for your "starter" to smell like vomit and death - probably not something you want to leave out on the kitchen counter.

real, properly aged sours generally take a minimum of 12-18 months to develop before bottling (and a few years in the bottle will make them even better). two years is a long time to wait to figure out if you've made a good beer or not, and it takes a long time to iterate on a recipe because of this. if you don't have good basic brewing technique, you could be adding flaws to your beer that will make it less enjoyable or even undrinkable down the line. brewing a few batches of something simple and clean like a balanced pale ale or a stout will let you make mistakes on something that you won't invest as much time and effort into, and will give you beer to drink quickly so you're not tempted to give up on or rush your sour.

my personal advice would be to go ahead and do the experiment, but get some other standard "beginner" beers into the pipeline (extract with steeping grains is a great place to start). you'll learn a lot, and in 6 months or so you'll have the knowledge you need to confidently go ahead with another sour. nothing wrong with brewing extract sours, by the way - time and bugs are the most important factors in brewing a sour.

good luck!

AmandaK said:

You can do a lambic in 9 months - but it will be really boring and lifeless.

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I'd say "one-dimensional".

I can make a face puckering lambic in 9 months. I wouldn't call that lifeless, but it's certainly not going to have the complexity and depth that makes those beers so much fun to enjoy. I imagine that this was more your point. Bottom line for the OP: there's no point in rushing a sour.