Specialty Grain: How should I steep?

So I've used specialty grains before, and I brought the temp up to about 155 and let my crystal malt steep for 20 minutes. From there I continued with the recipe as usual.

One thing I have read that may make things easier: Just throw the grains in the pot as it comes up to a boil and remove before it hits 200 degrees.

Is this a valid method for steeping specialty grains for an extract brew? Or should I not risk it and do it the long way of bringing to temp, holding, and then going to boil from there?

As long as you're just steeping your grains (ie just using specialty grains) and not mashing temp really shouldn't play a huge role. In theory, you could could steep your grains and achieve the same results it would just take you longer so you would want to steep them longer. That said, you really should try to keep the temp below 170 degrees to avoid tannin extraction.

You should do it in two different processes. ThE enzymes that convert the carbs in the malt to sugars do it best in specific temperature ranges. Outside of them you get poor extraction rates and if too high release tannins that add a certain astringency to your beer. Of course it may not be nearly as noticeable with a partial mash, but I always considered good practice to be good practice. You have alpha and beta amylase. They both add different characteristics to your wort, from fermentability to body. Most people that I have seen recommend temperatures between 148-160. Most commonly Ime 153-155. (lower temperatures will result in a more fermentable wort, higher, fuller body, once again though I would think it to be as much of a concern in partials)

dbhokie said:

You should do it in two different processes. ThE enzymes that convert the carbs in the malt to sugars do it best in specific temperature ranges. Outside of them you get poor extraction rates and if too high release tannins that add a certain astringency to your beer. Of course it may not be nearly as noticeable with a partial mash, but I always considered good practice to be good practice. You have alpha and beta amylase. They both add different characteristics to your wort, from fermentability to body. Most people that I have seen recommend temperatures between 148-160. Most commonly Ime 153-155. (lower temperatures will result in a more fermentable wort, higher, fuller body, once again though I would think it to be as much of a concern in partials)

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By the way that the OP presented the question it doesn't seem like he's trying to mash anything.

Care to clarify Getz?

Fid said:

By the way that the OP presented the question it doesn't seem like he's trying to mash anything.

Care to clarify Getz?

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A steep on specialty grains is a mini mash. You just have the extra t for your base and use a steep on specialties in order to get the desired adjunct flavor profiles from the specialty malts, whether caramel, nutty, coffee chocolate or just extra body. The same principles apply with temperatures related to your grains, enzymE activity, tannin extraction, it just wouldn't be as cOncerning as the specialties are a very small amount of your gristbill, at least as far as my understanding has lEd me.

Put the steeping grain in when you turn on the flame, take them out when it hits 160f and let the liquid drain out. Do NOT squeeze the grain bag as this will add tannins that will not be very nice.

done,

your not mini mashing so you dont need to convert and starches to sugars.

Relax, dont worry about doing things exactly as if handed down from above. as long as your sanitation is up to scratch you will make beer.

(sorry about gramma, spelling, puntuation and anything else, as this iPad autocorrect blows and i am in a rucs)

have fun!

Karmawar said:

Put the steeping grain in when you turn on the flame, take them out when it hits 160f and let the liquid drain out. Do NOT squeeze the grain bag as this will add tannins that will not be very nice.

done,

your not mini mashing so you dont need to convert and starches to sugars.

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:rockin:

dbhokie said:

A steep on specialty grains is a mini mash.

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Steeping and mashing are not the same thing.

From Palmer's How to Brew:
"Steeping differs from mashing in that there is no enzyme activity taking place to convert grain or adjunct starches to sugars. Steeping specialty grains is entirely a leaching and dissolution process of sugars into the wort. "

Basically, at the end of the day, steeping is just letting something sit in water... IE the way that you steep a cup of tea.

I am sorry, it was my mistake. Specialty malts have no enzymes so no or little diastatic power.

Post too late and don't read enough on my cell. To be honest I used the term mini-mash because it seems to me like a mini-mash. If you "steeped" any base grains with the specialty malts then you would end up converting sugars from them, because the enzymes would be present in the base grains. Which I suppose you could do in extract as well, and at that point it would be called a mini-mash. I kinda skipped the extract part when I started brewing and went to all grain.

Thanks for all the great feedback guys.

To clarify: I'm definitely not trying for a Partial Mash at this stage, the extract brewing process is so stress free and enjoyable. Just interested in the steeping process (which, not to be an A*hole, but I named this topic "How should I steep?" for that reason.. Putting them in and pulling before a certain temp will certainly cut some time and the minimal headache down.

Just to inquire a little further: should I make sure they steep for a certain amount of time? To much info between different sources. "Don't steep for less than 20 minutes" "Steep to long and it will extract nasty flavors" "Care about the temperature" "Temperature is only a guideline" "Eat eggs, don't eat eggs"



Thanks again

Well someone may come and make me eat my words again, but I do know that despite specialty malts not having enzymes, if you hit too high of a temperature it will extract some tannins, not much because it isn't much of your gristbill, but you should try to pull them out before 170 so that doesn't happen. I am sorry you named it correctly, I just jumped the gun on my cell phone, because even though I am not terribly experienced, I do pretty well all grain and HBT helped me so much I try to help where I can, but am certainly not trying to hurt or make anyone mad. As for time, I am sure there are plenty of extract brewers who will help you with that here, I don't have enough experience with extract brewing and flavors to add solid advice. Earlier I took too much from my all grain experiences, and it didn't translate so well because of my ignorance, so I won't be trying again.

If people say it doesn't matter that much, I could see how that would be true. When you are doing all grain if you extract a lot of tannins, it will be a whole lot. Steeping, with a small amount proportionally to your gristbill, even if you did pull it out before boil, the concentration of tannins you may pull out wouldn't be a big part of your wort. Someone else here can answer that with more authority, I can just tell you that I am sure if you go above 170 degrees you will greatly increase the risk of extracting some tannins. (Plus it is likely the PH of your liquor in the steep will be higher than liquor would be in a mash, which would increase tannin extraction likelihood, but again, it would be a proportionately low quantity compared to the rest of your gristbill).

Look, relax. I've been extract for a while. I've gotten water to temp. tried to hold it there. I've always done 40 -45 minutes no problem. Every kit I've gotten is always stating the temp. for steeping is usually 150 -160. It's like a tea. You're getting some of the flavor, color from the specialty grains. Just like all-grain.
Dunk it in there, take a spoon and spoon some of that tea over your grains sitting in the pot. Taste it. You'll get an idea of what the beer will taste like. You can stop steeping at any time. But for what it's worth. I've never gone an hour and I've always done longer than 20 minutes.
They beauty of homebrewing, is tasting things, smelling things, fine tuning things or doing it at your own pace.

NB kits typically say to steep for 20 minutes or when the temp reaches 170 degrees.

For me..20 minutes always comes first because I'm on an electric stove.

@dbhokie No problem man! I didn't mean to make you feel bad or anything, I was just trying to clear the air on what was being talked about. Seemed like there was some confusion, 'sall. Being a new brewer, and only extract at that, it's really appreciated to have some input from the AG community. You guys have a lot more to tweak and worry about.

@stusbrew That sounds like a really good idea. I've never considered tasting during the brew process. I've only ever sampled the extract (one time made me never do it again) and different points during primary and secondary.

@msmith92 I've actually never seen the "whichever comes first" guideline before, but that sounds like something I can get behind.

Getzinator said:

@msmith92 I've actually never seen the "whichever comes first" guideline before, but that sounds like something I can get behind.

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Yeah. Here's the exact quote from their instructions for an extract kit:

Pour crushed grain into supplied mesh bag and tie the open end in a knot. Steep for 20 minutes or until water reaches 170°F. Remove bag and discard.

Good deal. I use Brewers Best kits, and they have the specialty grain instructions as

Bring temp to 155-160 degrees. Do not let go above 160 or you will be smote. Steep for 20 minutes. (Or something like that)

I like your way better

Although it is one extra step, I like to heat a half gallon or so of water in a separate pot to around 170 degrees and when I pull my steeping grains out I put them in a colander over my brew kettle and then pour cup fulls of the 170 degree water over the grains until the liquid runs clear. Basically its just like sparging like you would do with an all grain batch. It seems to help get some extra "good stuff" out of the grains without squeezing the grain bag. Its not a completely necessary step but I like to be a bit more involved in my brew days... even the simple ones but.

Also, I'm going to get behind everyone else on the 170 degree being the cut off for steeping temps to avoid tannin extraction.

I like to get my water up to 155 or so, put in the grain bag and hold temp between 155 and 165 for 20 minutes. After 20 minutes, I crank the heat up and when it hits 170 I pull the grains out. Maybe a little ocd in there, but it makes me feel good. The funny thing is I started with a brewer's best kit and have since upgraded to northern brewer so my method takes a little from both instructions. Yes, I did say upgraded...if you haven't tried northern brewer's kits yet, go order one immediately and you can thank me later.

wilsojos said:

I like to get my water up to 155 or so, put in the grain bag and hold temp between 155 and 165 for 20 minutes. After 20 minutes, I crank the heat up and when it hits 170 I pull the grains out. Maybe a little ocd in there, but it makes me feel good. The funny thing is I started with a brewer's best kit and have since upgraded to northern brewer so my method takes a little from both instructions. Yes, I did say upgraded...if you haven't tried northern brewer's kits yet, go order one immediately and you can thank me later.

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What makes them so much better? I don't mean that in a skeptical way, in fact I just finished my 3rd kit of theirs, so I'm very green still. I like to support my LHBS and that's all they carry. But if there's a compelling reason to try another brand, I'm definitely open for it.

Getzinator said:

So I've used specialty grains before, and I brought the temp up to about 155 and let my crystal malt steep for 20 minutes. From there I continued with the recipe as usual.

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There are a couple reasons why this is better. First is that you cannot extract tannins with water under 170 and even over 170 it is difficult as you need a high pH to do is then.

The second reason is good practice. If you should ever decide to go to all grain brewing, temperature control during the mash is critical. If you are used to always keeping your temperature at 155 for steeping, keeping it at 152 for mashing will be so easy.

It seems to me that the ingredients tend to be a bit fresher and more thought is put into the recipes. By all means, if you like your lhbs and are happy with the beer you're making, stick with it. I don't have a lhbs close to my house so I mail-order most everything.

Getzinator said:

What makes them so much better? I don't mean that in a skeptical way, in fact I just finished my 3rd kit of theirs, so I'm very green still. I like to support my LHBS and that's all they carry. But if there's a compelling reason to try another brand, I'm definitely open for it.

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I stopped buying from NB but I use their recipes still. My LHBS sells all (mostly) the same ingredients. So I just piece it together there. I crush the grains there too (nice to have freshly crushed grains). Mainly, I like supporting local business.

when doing any extract batches I always put the grains in a steeping bag and then toss them in my H20. Bring it up to a temp that is too hot to touch. pull them out and let drain... continue as normal. not as scientific but works like a charm and doesn't require temp probes or other equipment.

This may be a dumb question, but I'm fairly new and it relates to this post. When steeping the specialty grains, do you just put the entire bag in there, or do you hold it by one end so it doesn't touch the bottom of the pot? I've always held it up or attach the top of the bag to something, but then it seems like all the grains get bunched up in a ball when they are steeping. Is that fine, or better to just dump the whole bag in so the grains are more spread out?

Tbnguy said:

This may be a dumb question, but I'm fairly new and it relates to this post. When steeping the specialty grains, do you just put the entire bag in there, or do you hold it by one end so it doesn't touch the bottom of the pot? I've always held it up or attach the top of the bag to something, but then it seems like all the grains get bunched up in a ball when they are steeping. Is that fine, or better to just dump the whole bag in so the grains are more spread out?

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You should have the fire turned off under the pot, and just put the whole bag in there so that all of the grains are loose and thoroughly wetted and stirred well.

I like to tie a knot in my grain bag as high up as possible to give them room to move around. I give them a little bounce now and then to make sure all the grains get wet.

Tbnguy said:

This may be a dumb question, but I'm fairly new and it relates to this post. When steeping the specialty grains, do you just put the entire bag in there, or do you hold it by one end so it doesn't touch the bottom of the pot? I've always held it up or attach the top of the bag to something, but then it seems like all the grains get bunched up in a ball when they are steeping. Is that fine, or better to just dump the whole bag in so the grains are more spread out?

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If the flame is turned off, there is no problem with letting the grain bag sink to the bottom. I learned this the hard way by leaving the flame on and getting the bag singed to the bottom of the pot. Another thing to note: Don't try and put all your grain in a single bag if you are steeping more than a pound of grain; I sparge the smaller grain bags with 150 degree water after steeping.

I steep in the oven...heat the water to 160F on the stove, strir the grains in (even if you use a bag, give them a stir in the bag), put the lid on the pot and stick it in a 150F pre-heated oven for 30 minutes...done, no fuss.

Tannins are not so much a threat from temperature, in decoction mashing a decent portion of the grist is boiled and there are no concerns about tannins there. Tannins are much less tolerant of pH though.

Well my brew day was this past sunday [Brewers Best Imperial Blonde, for those who are interested], and I ended up using the "throw it in when you turn the flame on, pull it out before 170" method. But I actually ended up having to choke the flame real low because it was getting there too fast, and I wanted a 30 min minimal steep.

That's a great point with the practice for AG. I don't know when, if ever, I'll be able to make that upgrade, but partial mashing isn't too far in the future. Practicing a controlled temp steep is probably great for that as well.

My grains always seem to slide to the bottom of the bag, and they also always float, never had an issue with them touching the bottom. I try to manipulate them as gently as possible so the extraction is more even throughout the grains, but it usually just returns to the same floating condition.

I've been contemplating just buying the ingredients for kits for a little while now anyway. I could definitely pick up the NB ingredients list (so conveniently posted online) and go from there. Was the difference in quality that great?

There is nothing fresher than crushing your own grains, so if your lhbs offers that, go that route. I almost regret making such a strong pitch for nb if you have a good lhbs. But, you could try one of their kits to see for yourself and decide if you want to. They have some good limited edition kits. I ordered farmhouse biere de table most recently which I anticipate is gonna be a great summer brew.

This is a great thread on steeping, and it answered a few questions that I had in my head. One more: Can anyone provide a list of the grains that can be steeped? I'm sticking to extract for a while, and I want to see how much I can experiment.

Here's a link from Palmer's How to Brew with a list of grains with general descriptions and info on whether a particular grain needs to be mashed.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html

No regrets @wilsojos! I'm still new in the broad scheme of things, and I lost knowing more about this wonderful hobby. Asking probing questions is just my way of being curious.

Also I agree that this has been a great thread on the matter. Thanks everyone

Fid said:

Here's a link from Palmer's How to Brew with a list of grains with general descriptions and info on whether a particular grain needs to be mashed.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html

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Thanks for the link. Soon I will be brewing batch #3!