Am I doing something wrong with my yeast starters?

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kickz28

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Hi,

I usually make all grain beers, but these two are about kits that I bought because I didn't have time for a full brew day.

The first kit is a Brew House IPA, and the second a Festa Brew Brown Ale. For those of you who are not familiar with these kits, they are basically all grain wort and all you gotta do is ferment them.

In the past I have made these kits with Nottingham yeast with great results, but this time I decided to go with liquid yeast. I used 1056 for the IPA and 1098 for the brown ale.

I made the starters using the instructions on MrMalty and using his calculator.

I made the IPA on March 10 (3.5 weeks ago) and the Brown Ale on March 26 (10 days ago).

I keep the room that they are in at 17 degrees C.

Today, I checked the SG of both, and they are both at 1.022. The OG for the IPA was 1.062 (should go to ~1.016) and for the Brown Ale 1.050 (should go to ~1.013).

I understand that fermentation can take a while, but the IPA is going on 4 weeks now.

Both are still bubbling. Is there anything I could be doing wrong that would make it take so much longer than normal?

Thanks!
 
Well, the room is at 17C (62.6F), and I have a thermometer sticker on the carboy that starts at 66F, and it's not showing anything (so, all I can tell is that it's below 66).
 
Another thing I forgot to mention is that both of these started fermenting pretty vigorously within 24h (a lot of stuff came out the blowoff tube).
 
You didn't provide any info on how you made the starters. What was viability? Optimum temp ranges? Is there any chance that the primary got much colder than you think? How did you aerate the wort?
 
I can see two things. First, your fermentation temperature is a bit coolish. You probably want to warm these beers up to 65-70F which should speed up yeast metabolism. Second, the fermentability of the worts you bought is a big mystery. They may just be less fermentable than the wort you normally make yourself. But start by warming these up and see if you can knock off a few more points.
 
Looks like you could be a bit low on your temp. requirements. I sometimes wrap my carboys with blankets and even resort to a heating pad to get them started back up when needed. Just keep an eye on your thermometer.

YEAST STRAIN: 1098 | British Ale™

This yeast allows malt and hop character to dominate the profile. It ferments dry and crisp, slightly tart, fruity and well balanced. Beers will finish clean and neutral. Ferments well down to 64°F (18°C).

Origin:
Flocculation: Medium
Attenuation: 73-75%
Temperature Range: 64-72 F, 18-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 10% ABV

YEAST STRAIN: 1056 | American Ale™


Very clean, crisp flavor characteristics with low fruitiness and mild ester production. A very versatile yeast for styles that desire dominate malt and hop character. This strain makes a wonderful “House” strain. Mild citrus notes develop with cooler 60-66°F (15-19ºC) fermentations. Normally requires filtration for bright beers.

Origin:
Flocculation: Medium-Low
Attenuation: 73-77%
Temperature Range: 60-72F, 15-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 11% ABV
 
You didn't provide any info on how you made the starters. What was viability? Optimum temp ranges? Is there any chance that the primary got much colder than you think? How did you aerate the wort?

For the IPA, I did a 1.5L starter. I mix 150g DME with 1.5L of water, then boil 15 minutes, cool to about 70, and pitch the yeast.

For the brown ale, same thing but the starter was a bit smaller.

I then decant about 1/2 the wort and mix the rest with the yeast on the bottom, and then pitch into the carboy.

I'm not sure if the problem is with the starter or the temperature now. I did get a very active fermentation in the first 2-3 days. It just seems to have slowed way down after that.

For the IPA:
OG: 1.062 (March 10)
SG: 1.030 (March 24 - 2 weeks)
SG: 1.024 (March 31 - 3 weeks)
SG: 1.022 (April 4 - 3.5 weeks).

It seems to be going down, just not too fast.
 
Looks like you could be a bit low on your temp. requirements. I sometimes wrap my carboys with blankets and even resort to a heating pad to get them started back up when needed. Just keep an eye on your thermometer.

YEAST STRAIN: 1098 | British Ale™

This yeast allows malt and hop character to dominate the profile. It ferments dry and crisp, slightly tart, fruity and well balanced. Beers will finish clean and neutral. Ferments well down to 64°F (18°C).

Origin:
Flocculation: Medium
Attenuation: 73-75%
Temperature Range: 64-72 F, 18-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 10% ABV

YEAST STRAIN: 1056 | American Ale™


Very clean, crisp flavor characteristics with low fruitiness and mild ester production. A very versatile yeast for styles that desire dominate malt and hop character. This strain makes a wonderful “House” strain. Mild citrus notes develop with cooler 60-66°F (15-19ºC) fermentations. Normally requires filtration for bright beers.

Origin:
Flocculation: Medium-Low
Attenuation: 73-77%
Temperature Range: 60-72F, 15-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 11% ABV

I just raised the temperature in the room to 19C, hopefully this will solve my problem.
 
I can see two things. First, your fermentation temperature is a bit coolish. You probably want to warm these beers up to 65-70F which should speed up yeast metabolism. Second, the fermentability of the worts you bought is a big mystery. They may just be less fermentable than the wort you normally make yourself. But start by warming these up and see if you can knock off a few more points.

I did warm it up a bit.

I know kits can be hit or miss, but these are pretty high quality (and are fresh), and I've always had good results with them.
 
kickz28 said:
For the IPA, I did a 1.5L starter. I mix 150g DME with 1.5L of water, then boil 15 minutes, cool to about 70, and pitch the yeast.

For the brown ale, same thing but the starter was a bit smaller.

I then decant about 1/2 the wort and mix the rest with the yeast on the bottom, and then pitch into the carboy.

I'm not sure if the problem is with the starter or the temperature now. I did get a very active fermentation in the first 2-3 days. It just seems to have slowed way down after that.

For the IPA:
OG: 1.062 (March 10)
SG: 1.030 (March 24 - 2 weeks)
SG: 1.024 (March 31 - 3 weeks)
SG: 1.022 (April 4 - 3.5 weeks).

It seems to be going down, just not too fast.

How long do you let the starters go before pitching? If you decant, you should crash cool the yeast first. I'm not sure if your doing that or not. Are you using a stir plate or how are you aerating the starters?
 
Did you try to agitate the wort? Sometime when fermentation gets stalled a good stir or a transfer to secondary will kick it back up. I would say to add some yeast nutrient but you've already had a strong initial fermentation so that likely won't do much at this point, but may have helped earlier (since the full details of the mash/wort aren't available, it could just be low in some vitamin or mineral requirement).
I've had cases personally (and heard stories from others) where stirring or transferring the wort kicks off a second spell of fermenting after a long inactive spell. In fact, that's one of the reasons we check SG instead oh just going by bubbles!
 
How long do you let the starters go before pitching? If you decant, you should crash cool the yeast first. I'm not sure if your doing that or not. Are you using a stir plate or how are you aerating the starters?

I usually make the starters the day before around 8-9pm and then use them the next day, so it gives them 18-22 hours. I don't have a stir plate, so I just shake them up whenever I pass by them.

I don't crash cool before though. I didn't know that I had to do that. How long should I leave them in the fridge for?

Normally I wouldn't bother decanting it, but the carboys are so full that I can't really fit the extra 2L of liquid in there without it being TOO full.

Did you try to agitate the wort? Sometime when fermentation gets stalled a good stir or a transfer to secondary will kick it back up. I would say to add some yeast nutrient but you've already had a strong initial fermentation so that likely won't do much at this point, but may have helped earlier (since the full details of the mash/wort aren't available, it could just be low in some vitamin or mineral requirement).
I've had cases personally (and heard stories from others) where stirring or transferring the wort kicks off a second spell of fermenting after a long inactive spell. In fact, that's one of the reasons we check SG instead oh just going by bubbles!

I have been agitating it a bit every couple of days. Hopefully now that I raised the temperature a bit, it will help.

I checked this morning and the thermometer strip on the carboy was indicating 66F.

Thanks!
 
You dont have to cold crash/decant starters if you dont want to. Its just something people do when then make large starters (like 4L) and they dont want to pour the beer from the starter into their wort. With your 1.5L starter and decanting ~half of the liquid on top of the cake, I bet you are fine.

As to your FG, if the "wort" was made using extract is can be difficult to get below 1020. Just continue to monitor and as long as the gravities done chage over a 3-5 day period you can secondary/cold crash/bottle or whatever you want to do
 
I usually make the starters the day before around 8-9pm and then use them the next day, so it gives them 18-22 hours. I don't have a stir plate, so I just shake them up whenever I pass by them.

I don't crash cool before though. I didn't know that I had to do that. How long should I leave them in the fridge for?

Normally I wouldn't bother decanting it, but the carboys are so full that I can't really fit the extra 2L of liquid in there without it being TOO full.



I have been agitating it a bit every couple of days. Hopefully now that I raised the temperature a bit, it will help.

I checked this morning and the thermometer strip on the carboy was indicating 66F.

Thanks!

If I understand this correctly, you are decanting the starter after 18-22 h? Is this the case? If so, then you are likely decanting some healthy yeast. If you pitch the yeast starter after this time period then you should pitch the entire starter otherwise you risk losing some of the yeast and therefore risk a stuck fermentation. If you want to decant some of the starter wort then I would let the starter go for 48 h then crash in the fridge for at least 12 h prior to decanting.
 
If I understand this correctly, you are decanting the starter after 18-22 h? Is this the case? If so, then you are likely decanting some healthy yeast. If you pitch the yeast starter after this time period then you should pitch the entire starter otherwise you risk losing some of the yeast and therefore risk a stuck fermentation. If you want to decant some of the starter wort then I would let the starter go for 48 h then crash in the fridge for at least 12 h prior to decanting.

Yes that's what I'm doing. I'll know for next time!

Thanks!
 
Normally I wouldn't bother decanting it, but the carboys are so full that I can't really fit the extra 2L of liquid in there without it being TOO full.

Do you mean that you don't want to add the starters because you'd take up too much headspace, or that you don't actually have room to fit 2L into your carboy? I guess what I'm asking is what size carboy are you fermenting in, and how much headspace is left? If you don't have very much headspace, you could have lost a decent amout of yeast in your blowoff, leaving you less to actually ferment after the initial burst cooled down. If its also a little colder than they may like, it could be compounding the problem.

Feel free to ignore if you've got plenty of headspace, in which case you are probably on the right track with raising the temps a little.
 
Do you mean that you don't want to add the starters because you'd take up too much headspace, or that you don't actually have room to fit 2L into your carboy? I guess what I'm asking is what size carboy are you fermenting in, and how much headspace is left? If you don't have very much headspace, you could have lost a decent amout of yeast in your blowoff, leaving you less to actually ferment after the initial burst cooled down. If its also a little colder than they may like, it could be compounding the problem.

Feel free to ignore if you've got plenty of headspace, in which case you are probably on the right track with raising the temps a little.

With the starter in it (I guess about 3/4 liter), I had NO headspace left. I know this wasn't a good idea. From what I had read though, buy the time the beer starts fermenting, there would be plenty of yeast in it to ferment.

I guess I did lose a lot of yeast.

Thanks!
 
Update:

So, after 3-4 days since I raised the temperature a bit, and swirled the beer around to suspend the yeast, here is the SG:

IPA: 1.020
Brown Ale: 1.019

Still going down, but still going pretty slowly. I'm not sure if the difference in temperature has made a difference or not.

Here are my notes for the next batch:

* If I want to decant the starter, make it at least 3 days in advance, and leave it in the fridge at least 12 hours before decanting. Otherwise I could lose a lot of yeast.
* I can also simply pitch the complete starter
* Keep a good amount of headspace in my fermenter to avoid losing too much yeast threw the blow-off tube.
* Try to keep the temperature around 18.5 to 19C. 17 is slightly too cold.

I think that these things will probably help a lot.

That said, the samples I'm taking for measuring the gravity seem to taste pretty good, so I still have hope for these beers!

Thanks everyone for the advice!
 
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