so confused by water report

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runningweird

runningweird

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Joined
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Location
State Line, PA
Results For :
Sample ID :
Location :
IAN WEIR
pH 7.2
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 429
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.71
Cations / Anions, me/L 7.5 / 8.3


ppm
Sodium, Na 11
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 104
Magnesium, Mg 22
Total Hardness, CaCO3 352
Nitrate, NO3-N 3.6 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 11
Chloride, Cl 23
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 409
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 335


got it yesterday, we just moved and now have a well instead of a cistern. the water tastes great, but I'm not sure how it will be for brewing.
 
Ignore the advice that if it tastes fine then it is fine for brewing. I wish I had read about bicarbonates 20 batches ago. Assuming your talking about all-grain though.
 
runningweird said:
haha, that was one of the many tabs I had open in chrome. I understand most of it, but is the point to simply ape the water profiles of breweries to reproduce their style of beers?
Click to expand...

It works well for some beers but not for others. The residual alkalinity, for example, needs to be suitable for the beer you are brewing. It it is not, as it uis the case for Munich Water and Munich Helles, then you can assume that the brewers either threat their water or use acid in the mash.

As you progress in the understanding of water chemistry, you should definitely look into alkalinity reduction with slaked lime (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alkalinity_reduction_with_lime) since it would work well for your water. Your major investment would be a large water treatment tank (enough to hold all your brewing water for one batch) and a GH&KH test kit.

The other option is to go reverse osmosis. That will give you slightly more flexibility, but will be more expensive.

Kai
 
grathan said:
Ignore the advice that if it tastes fine then it is fine for brewing. I wish I had read about bicarbonates 20 batches ago. Assuming your talking about all-grain though.
Click to expand...

That advice might work in brewing a narrow range of beer styles, but a brewer must learn to adjust their brewing liquor alkalinity to brew a wide range of styles. As grathan says, you at least must learn to adjust alkalinity. Learning to adjust other water factors can wait, but it you want to tackle that style that just doesn't seem to come out right...you'll have to learn to adjust alkalinity.
 
The SM-101 has been superseded by the MW-101 meter. I followed Kai's advice regarding my last meter purchase and have been pleased with the MW-101. I had Hanna pH Checker meters prior. Those Hanna's were decent, but the Milwaukee MW-101 has proven to be better.

Kai needs to update the link to the SM-101 on his site, since it no longer exists. I'd suggest pointing at a MW-101 and explaining the SM was superseded by it.
 
so once I get the pH meter and some pickling lime I can start playing with my water.

for a 10 gallon batch I will need a lot of space to treat water in, what do you guys use as a treatment/precipitant tank?

I was thinking of using a 15 gallon hdpe drum with a spigot or ball valve. do you have to empty out the chalk residue after every treatment?
 
runningweird said:
I was thinking of using a 15 gallon hdpe drum with a spigot or ball valve. do you have to empty out the chalk residue after every treatment?
Click to expand...

No, it actually makes sense to keep it in there since the existing chalk will help the precipitation of more chalk by providing seed crystals. That's why it is recommended to also add some chalk when treating with lime or boiling water.

Once in a while you may want to clean it out.

Kai
 
Just buy the Colorphast strips. By the time you buy that meter and also buy calibration, cleaning, and storing solution and acids and lime, you will have spent half the cost of a Reverse Osmosis water system. And that cheap meter will most likely drift and need replacement in a year or two. I personally would never buy anything from Amazon with only a 3 star review.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
runningweird said:
reviving an older thread. I now have a 32 gallon trash can, ph strips(no meter yet), alkalinity strips and the feeling of being totally out of my depth.

I was looking at palmers page http://www.winning-homebrew.com/carbonate-reduction.html

and wondering what my temporary hardness was - is it the total alkalinity reading? or the bicarbonate reading?
Click to expand...

Yes it's the total alkalinity. Your water is a great candidate for lime softening.
 
so - 335x .74 = 247.9

so I would need 247.9 mg/liter of water treated

if I wanted to treat 20 gallons of water that would be 75.7 liters
so 18766/1000 = 18.76 grams of slaked lime
paler says to adjust up 20-30% so

18.76 x 1.25 =23.5 grams slaked lime to treat 20 gallons of water

is this right? that seems like a lot of lime from what I have read.

would I need to add supplemental calcium in in the form of calcium carbonate ?
 
runningweird said:
so - 335x .74 = 247.9

so I would need 247.9 mg/liter of water treated

if I wanted to treat 20 gallons of water that would be 75.7 liters
so 18766/1000 = 18.76 grams of slaked lime
paler says to adjust up 20-30% so

18.76 x 1.25 =23.5 grams slaked lime to treat 20 gallons of water

is this right? that seems like a lot of lime from what I have read.

would I need to add supplemental calcium in in the form of calcium carbonate ?
Click to expand...

I'd try the 18.76 grams first. That amount (scaled for my water, obviously) has worked for me.
 
When you do the treatment I'd add half your water and add the entire amount of lime, then stir as you're adding the rest of the water (say a good stir per gallon).
 
runningweird said:
18.76 x 1.25 =23.5 grams slaked lime to treat 20 gallons of water

is this right?
Click to expand...

Yes, approximately. I get 23.9 grams (some calculators forget that there is a second component required to overcome the buffering capacity of the water) but the important thing for you to know is that where precipitation is involved things are a little iffy. DeClerck recommends that one calculate an amount and treat three samples one with the calculated amount and two other with respectively ±10% (or perhaps 15%) more or less. Then after the treatment measure the alkalinity and pick the dose that gives the best result.

afr0byte's recommendation is equivalent to doing this. As you add in the second half of the water gradually the pH should stay relatively stable as the chalk forms and precipitates i.e. it should decrease slowly. When all the lime is used up the pH will start to fall back more rapidly. That is your signal that the reaction is complete. Adding more water will only add more alkalinity that won't get neutralized so you should stop at this point. The pH may be higher than where you started (i.e. higher than in your untreated water). As Hubert Hanghoffer pointed out many years ago this is an acid/base titration (the acid is the bicarbonate ion in the source water) and you want to stop at the inflection point. If the end point pH is 8.3 so be it. Remember you don't care about the water's pH. You are doing this to beat alkalinity.

Of course all this is quite a bit of trouble and requires a fairly good pH meter (doen't even have to be as good as the one you should have for checking mash) and you have to weigh out the lime etc. You'll get the same result (decarbonation to about 1 mEq/L) just by heating the water in the HLT and sparging off the CO2. Steam is good for that (IOW you have to let the water come to the boil) but one clever idea is to spray the hot water through a shower head or similar device. You then have to get the water off the chalk and wait for it to cool to mash temperature but you have to get the water off the chalk with lime treatment but you get the hot water as part of the decarbonation process. Any way you look at it each method has its advantages and disadvantages. I'd be inclined to try both, measuring treated water akalinity after each, to see which one was easiest/most effective.
 
Yes. You have 6.7 mval alkalinity and 5.2 calcium hardness. You will want to increase the calcium by adding sulfate or chloride in ratio that depends on how much sulfate and chloride you ultimately want to get the calcium hardness up to at least 6.7. That should, if the rule of thumb applies closely to your case, get you to about 1 mval (50 ppm as CaCO3) each alkalinity and hardness. You really should test to see what you actually get (test kits are available from companies such as Hach, LaMotte, Cole Parmer... and from aquarium and pool suppliers). If more than the 1 mval calcium is wanted then extra sulfate and/or chloride need to be added but do it before the heat or lime treatment as you may be able to get the bicarbonate down a bit below 1 mval and every bit helps.
 
how long does this take to settle out? I mixed up a trash can full of water last night- looked today and it's still on the cloudy side.
 
also, ajdelange, you spoke of adding sulfate or chloride to the water in a ratio, at wahat ratio do I add those things?
 
runningweird said:
also, ajdelange, you spoke of adding sulfate or chloride to the water in a ratio, at wahat ratio do I add those things?
Click to expand...

You need to add that extra calcium before you do the treatment, btw. Calcium is used in the reaction (You're forming CaCO3.), so if you don't have enough you'll end up with leftover lime in the water.
 
If you want to play with the chemistry of slaked lime treatment use this calculator:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=CNJVQX2

It was not released yet when I first posted in this thread. The section were to control the precipitation is &#8220;Boiling and Lime Softening&#8221;. If you also open the &#8220;Mash Water before Dough-In&#8221; section you can see the predicted pH, alkalinity, etc.

You&#8217;ll also notice that with added calcium your alkalinity is able to drop further just like afr0byte said.

Kai
 
Kaiser said:
If you want to play with the chemistry of slaked lime treatment use this calculator:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=CNJVQX2

It was not released yet when I first posted in this thread. The section were to control the precipitation is “Boiling and Lime Softening”. If you also open the “Mash Water before Dough-In” section you can see the predicted pH, alkalinity, etc.

You’ll also notice that with added calcium your alkalinity is able to drop further just like afr0byte said.

Kai
Click to expand...



looks neat, I'll play around with it over lunch.
 
runningweird said:
how long does this take to settle out? I mixed up a trash can full of water last night- looked today and it's still on the cloudy side.
Click to expand...

If the particles are finely divided it can take a long time and if it takes too long atmospheric CO2 will enter the water and the particles will redissolve. To get larger particles try adding some chalk to the water before adding the lime. The lime that precipitates will tend to precipitate onto those particles and thus should settle faster. Also, be sure you are stirring throughout the whole process as this give the particles opportunity to flocculate. You could also add a small amount of aluminum chloride or ferric chloride. This is what a water treatment plant does to get particulates to settle. But you have to be careful to get the right amounts (determined by experiment) as you don't want ferric or aluminum ion in your beer.

runningweird said:
also, ajdelange, you spoke of adding sulfate or chloride to the water in a ratio, at wahat ratio do I add those things?
Click to expand...

Whatever ratio you like! By this I mean that some people don't like the effects of sulfate and some people love it and some people love it is ales and hate it in lagers so it is a trial and error thing. I always recommend starting with straight chloride and adding some sulfate in the glass to see if they like the effect. If they do they then brew with sulfate next time.
 
I'm going to brew with this water tomorrow, 10 gallons of something - maybe something with citra.

I brewed not too long ago with my water as it comes from the tap, so I will be able to compare what brewing with my stock water vs treated water does.
 
time to revive an old thread.

I've been using slaked lime to treat my beers and have had a few batches that went wrong. no hop aroma despite lots of late addition hops, and a strange malt tang thing going on.

well, i realized that I had just been adding slaked lime without adding additional calcium to complete the reaction and so I think I am ending up with left over lime in the water - making my beer taste weird.

I made sure I didn't have any infections - blasted fermenters/plate chiler/ball valves/pickup tubes with everything from lye to idophore to oxyclean to pbw.

here is my water report:
Results For :
Sample ID :
Location :
IAN WEIR
pH 7.2
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 429
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.71
Cations / Anions, me/L 7.5 / 8.3


ppm
Sodium, Na 11
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 104
Magnesium, Mg 22
Total Hardness, CaCO3 352
Nitrate, NO3-N 3.6 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 11
Chloride, Cl 23
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 409
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 335


how much additional calcium - or other stuff - would I need to add to complete the reaction?
I have calcium carbonate powder, and some gypsum sitting around somewhere.
 
What is it you are trying to do with the lime addition? From the looks of your water, I assume you are trying to soften it via lime softening. You certainly don't need to add any additional calcium to complete the reaction. Just add lime until you reach a pH of at least 10.5 and then let all the sediment settle. Decant the clear water off and either let it sit exposed to air for a few days or bubble air through it to bring the water pH down a bit. You will still have to add an acid or acid malt to the mash in most cases since the alkalinity of the treated water will not be low enough and that remaining alkalinity will require acid.

With the amount of alkalinity in that tap water, you wouldn't need to be adding lime to the mash to alter its pH. So hopefully that is not the case.
 
mabrungard said:
With the amount of alkalinity in that tap water, you wouldn't need to be adding lime to the mash to alter its pH. So hopefully that is not the case.
Click to expand...

so I don't need to add lime to it at all? I was concerned with excess bitterness from the high temporary hardness.

I just can't wrap my head around water chemistry
 
runningweird said:
so I don't need to add lime to it at all? I was concerned with excess bitterness from the high temporary hardness.

I just can't wrap my head around water chemistry
Click to expand...

Uh oh! We might have led you astray. Lime treatment for water is a pre-treatment. With your water, you don't want any more alkalinity in the mash. Its already too high for most brewing. Acid is what you need to be adding to most mashes when brewing with that water. Are you using Bru'n Water?
 
mabrungard said:
Uh oh! We might have led you astray. Lime treatment for water is a pre-treatment. With your water, you don't want any more alkalinity in the mash. Its already too high for most brewing. Acid is what you need to be adding to most mashes when brewing with that water. Are you using Bru'n Water?
Click to expand...



well now.

not using bru'n water, i guess I will. what kind of acid should I be adding? i've been using 5.2 stabilizer(not sure if it's bunk) for the last two batches and they have been better than the aforementioned crap weird batch.
 
Employing acid is far better than using the 5.2 stuff. 5.2 can add flavor that you may not want in your beer.

Wow, that is a lot of alkalinity. You might get by with phosphoric acid, but another option for you to consider...since you have the lime, you could pretreat your tap water and drop out some of the calcium and alkalinity. Then the water could serve as a better starting point for brewing. You really need a pH meter if you are doing this though.
 
mabrungard said:
Employing acid is far better than using the 5.2 stuff. 5.2 can add flavor that you may not want in your beer.

Wow, that is a lot of alkalinity. You might get by with phosphoric acid, but another option for you to consider...since you have the lime, you could pretreat your tap water and drop out some of the calcium and alkalinity. Then the water could serve as a better starting point for brewing. You really need a pH meter if you are doing this though.
Click to expand...

so - 335x .74 = 247.9

so I would need 247.9 mg lime/liter of water treated

if I wanted to treat 20 gallons of water that would be 75.7 liters
so 18766/1000 = 18.76 grams of slaked lime
paler says to adjust up 20-30% so

18.76 x 1.25 =23.5 grams slaked lime to treat 20 gallons of water


this is what I've been doing. treating in advance, a day or so with slaked lime in a large rubbermaid trash can.

perhaps we have our signals crossed.
 
the problem, as I saw it, was that there wasn't enough straight calcium in the water to start with to complete the reaction, so I was ending up with some left over lime in the water.
 

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