Using DI Water

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FloridaCracker

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Alright, silly question. Can you use DI water for your brew?

I am currently researching a cream ale for a local comp in August, and all the information I find recommends using soft water. Living in Florida, and not wanting to invest in a water softener simply for brewing I realized I have access to a ton of fresh DI water.

So can you do it, and will it affect flavor? Is there any source you could think of that I could use in place of soft water or DI?

Thanks.
 
If brewing extract: yes, di water is preferred because the minerals are already in the extracts in the amounts needed for the finished beer.

If brewing all grain: yes, you can use di water, but you need to add brewing salts (minerals) to the mash according to the beer style you are brewing. Palmer has a good chapter on this in his book.... And a new book coming out on this topic alone. There is also a lot of info on here in this brew science subforum.
 
Is there any source you could think of that I could use in place of soft water or DI?

You don't want to use softened water. Too much sodium.

Every supermarket I can think of has a water vending machine. They dispense reverse osmosis water, which is plenty pure enough for brewing purposes. Deionized just goes one step further to get the last few ppm tds down, which I understand is important for fishtanks but not for beer.
 
Guys, I really appreciate the information! I read the info provided and it seems that adding "stuff" to the water to balance creates a large possibility for error. As a result I will just use RO water, or spring water. My first few beers I used spring water and all seemed fine, my last couple I used tap (mild residual chlorides, and ~8.6 pH, 300ppm hardness) and the results were a little off. Thanks again for all your advice!
 
FloridaCracker said:
I read the info provided and it seems that adding "stuff" to the water to balance creates a large possibility for error./QUOTE]

If you are starting with water with nothing in it, then all you do is add the minerals you want using a gram scale. There are a few spreadsheets and calculators out there that will tell you exactly what you should end up with. With this method you will get within 10% of what you are wanting for water chemistry and that is close enough for beer.

People end up in trouble when there start trying to mess with their source water based on a water report, then adding proportions of ro water with minerals in order to balance the source water out.

MT
 
With this method you will get within 10% of what you are wanting for water chemistry...

That's true unless you use chalk (calcium cabonate). Most of the spreadsheets and calculators do not robustly handle carbonate or bicarbonate. But there are lots of reasons not to fiddle with those anyway.
 
That's true unless you use chalk (calcium cabonate). Most of the spreadsheets and calculators do not robustly handle carbonate or bicarbonate. But there are lots of reasons not to fiddle with those anyway.

I've always added my salts directly to the mash when adding the grains. By doing this you can greatly increase the solubility of calcium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate since they are highly pH dependent and the mash pH quickly begins to fall below 6. There is a lot of complex water chemistry going on with these relationships and equilibrium concentrations of the minerals and their ions, but for most, trusting in the fact that others have figured it all out and that you can simply add the salts based on the estimated final result is more than adequate. (my brain needs to know the "why" for each process, so I read a lot of the journal articles and science-side of things)

I calculate the total of each salt needed for the total volume of water I need for mash and sparges. I add the proportion of salts needed for the proportion of mash water volume to total water volume; these go right in the mash. I sparge with straight ro/di, then add the remaining salts to the boil kettle to result in the calculated concentrations of minerals in the wort.
 
The solubility of calcium carbonate and of calcium bicarbonate do not depend on pH though I can see why you might think that. What does depend on pH is the ratio of bicarbonate to carbonate ion concentration. At higher pH the ratio shifts to higher carbonate levels and as calcium carbonate it is largely insoluble it precipitates at higher pH if calcium is present. Conversely, at lower pH, the calcium carbonate that does dissolve has its carbonate converted to bicarbonate allowing more chalk to go into solution. The chemistry isn't that complex but it's not something most have been exposed to since college. This means that most have not figured it out (there is an abundance of calculators and spreadsheets that more or less ignore this aspect of things) though the situation is getting better i.e. more and more brewers are coming to understand it and the spreadsheets are improving.

The chemistry by which nature makes carbonaceous water does not involve dissolving chalk in mash. It involves dissolving chalk by means of carbonic acid. Put another way, in a natural water, the acid is carbonic, not malt organic acid nor the acid released by the calcium - phytin reaction. Thus unless one emulates nature and uses carbonic acid one cannot achieve a naturally occurring water profile with very good accuracy. Conversely if one does it is possible to attain ion concentrations within 1% of those in natural waters (assuming that one measures his salts and pH accurately enough). As hinted at in the last post this is a lot of trouble and seldom worth it.
 
What does depend on pH is the ratio of bicarbonate to carbonate ion concentration.

What you are referring to is the solubility equilibria, specifically the carbonic acid equilibrium, which certainly affects the pH of the solution. When you physically change the pH of the solution (not leave it at equilibrium state) by adding other acids, which occurs in the mash, you drive the equilibrium and thus the solubility of the constituents of CaCO3 and other solutes (to more or less of a degree):


[url said:
http://www.chemistry.nmsu.edu/studntres/chem116/notes/solubility.html][/url]

CaCO3(s) <=> Ca2+(aq) + CO32-(aq)

When a strong acid is added, the hydrogen ion reacts with carbonate ion, because it is conjugate to a weak acid (HCO3-).
H3O+(aq) + CO32-(aq) <=> H2O(l) + HCO3-(aq)

As carbonate ion is removed, calcium carbonate dissolves. Moreover, the hydrogen carbonate ion itself is removed in further reaction.

H3O+(aq) + HCO3-(aq) -->H2O(l) + H2CO3(aq) --> 2H2O(l) + CO2(g)

What brewers are most interested in is the molar solubility or solubility product (Ksp; equilibrium constant).....the actual amount of moles of solute (brewing salts) per liter of solution (brewing liquor, or mash, or wort). This is also dependent upon pH of the solution.

[url said:
http://ion.chem.usu.edu/~sbialkow/Classes/3600/alpha/alpha3.html][/url]

molar solubility of CaCO3 as a function of pH

pH pa2 molar solubility
2 12.68 170
4 8.68 1.70
6 4.84 0.020
8 2.34 0.0011
10 0.49 1.4x10-4
12 0.0092 7.8x10-5

Now, calculate all this for the other brewing salts and the combined solution and its equilibrium state, and I'd say it's pretty complex. Luckily we don't have to do this every Saturday!

:mug:
 
What you are referring to is the solubility equilibria, specifically the carbonic acid equilibrium,

Not sure what you mean by 'solubility equilibria'. The solubility of calcium carbonate is dictated by

-log[Ca++] - log[CO3--] >= pKs

where pKs = -log(Ks) = 8.45 (calcite, 20 °C)

...which certainly affects the pH of the solution.

The inequality is the same regardless of pH. What does change with pH is the proportion of total carbo, Ct, that is CO3--: [H2CO3] = f1(pH)*Ct, [HCO3-]=f2(pH)*Ct, [CO3--] = f3(pH)*Ct.

Defining r1 = 10^(pH-pK1), r2 = 10^(pH-pK2) where pK1 = 6.38 and pK2 = 10.38 are the two pKs for cabonic acid at 20°C and d = 1/(1 + r1 + r1*r2) then f1 = d, f2 = r1*f1 and f3 = r2*f2. Ct can be determined from the alkalinity, the original pH of the sample and the end point pH to which it is titrated in determining the alkalinity.

Thus water chemists prefer to think of pH as the 'master variable' i.e. everything else depends on it. You can ask the question 'what happens if I add x grams of calcium carbonate to a solution or what happens if I add acid?' and in some cases there may be a pH shift but in others there won't be. For example, if a water (typical surface water) is in equilibrium with limestone and atmospheric CO2 adding more limestone (chalk) will not cause a pH shift. Neither will adding acid. In the former case nothing happens. In the latter case some more limestone will dissolve and the water will become more alkaline but it is still in saturation WRT atmospheric CO2 and limestone. No pH change. But if you add enough acid to dissolve all the limestone then the pH will change. In solving problems like this the approach is to write out all the equations and try pH values in them until you find the one that causes them to be consistent (electronic neutrality or proton condition). Hence the 'master variable' designation.


When you physically change the pH of the solution (not leave it at equilibrium state) by adding other acids, which occurs in the mash, you drive the equilibrium and thus the solubility of the constituents of CaCO3 and other solutes (to more or less of a degree)

If you are trying to say that acid dissolves limestone

CaCO3 + 2H+ --> Ca++ + 2HCO3-

that is true but adding acid doesn't necessarily change the pH as noted above. And even if you change the pH the solubility is still governed by

-log[Ca++] - log[CO3--] >= pKs

One of the (many) problems with adding chalk to mash is that the system never really comes to equilibrium. If one drops a piece of limestone into 10 N hydrochloric acid then the reaction proceeds very quickly. If one drops a piece of limestone into water acidified to pH 5.2 it will take a very very long time for it to dissolve. Thus the addition of chalk to mash is unpredictable because by the time equilibrium would be reached we would be putting away our brew gear. One is better off using calcium hydroxide. In neither case can there be any pretense that any particular water profile has been emulated.

But as noted there should never be any reason to add carbonate or bicarbonate as mash water at pH 5.2 contains very little of it (6 % of the total carbo) not to mention that it doesn't taste very good.




What brewers are most interested in is the molar solubility or solubility product (Ksp; equilibrium constant).....the actual amount of moles of solute (brewing salts) per liter of solution (brewing liquor, or mash, or wort). This is also dependent upon pH of the solution.

What brewers are interested in is particular levels of ion concentration expressed in mg/L or mEq/L though there is no real reason why mmol/L couldn't be used. After all, mEq/L is practically speaking the same thing. It's just that in water chemistry and brewing we use mg/L and mEq/L (or, in North America, the ppm as CaCO3 = 0.02 mEq/L). Brewer's don't care a fig about solubility products though they care about knowing that the solubility of gypsum is about 2.4 grams per liter in cold water and less in warm. Unless they are doing the kind of calculations I alluded to earlier they would have no use for the Ksp of caclium carbonate (most spreadsheets and calculators do not contain this constant nor ask about pH) but it does appear in one of the 6 equations that must be simultaneously solved if pH is to be predicted in an equilibrium carbonaceous water. One would do this if one wanted to simulate a natural water. One cannot do this for the chalk added to mash situation as the math only predicts what would happen at equilibrium if equilibrium were reached and it isn't.

The other case where brewers should be concerned about a Ksp is for that of hyroxyl appatite which, by precipitating in the mash when the water is high in calcium reduces mash pH through the release of hydrogen ions. This can be a factor where pH is controlled with phosphoric acid and the hardness is high.


Now, calculate all this for the other brewing salts and the combined solution and its equilibrium state, and I'd say it's pretty complex. Luckily we don't have to do this every Saturday!

It's not really complex - it's easily done in a spreadsheet where the difficulties are more related to the bookkeeping aspects than the hairiness of the math or chemistry. Excel has a very powerful feature called the Solver which tries values for pH until balance is found.

There really isn't much point in doing all this each brew day though as the proper amount of bicarbonate in brewing water is 0. Getting proper chloride, sulfate, magnesium, calcium and sodium levels from the salts of strong acids and strong bases is trivially done with a simple spreadsheet that does not need to know anything about pH's or pK's.
 
Wow Guys,

You really went over my head on that one, and I work in a water lab... Again, I think I will stick with spring water. Mostly because it's easy but also because my LHBS doesn't carry minerals.. Thanks again though for your help.
 
http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

A good spreadsheet to help you!

Also I have to agree with ajdelange in regards to carbonate/total alkalinity levels... if they are too high as can be caused by limestone in wells, you will a very tough time cutting down the pH... Sodium Bicarbonate has 2 CO3's, Carbonate molecules in it which contribute to raising and buffering pH levels... Buffered pH levels are like plateaus, technically pKA's, that are really difficult to cut down... that said, hehe, enough acid can do it! :) You just have to use more. I have a 130 TA and don't have any trouble getting conversion with the addition of just a little CaCl2 (calcium chloride), and if I"m brewin' English I add some gypsum.. And dang, I just remembered I'm bring something very yellow this week and need some lactic acid I don't have... grrrrr... Roasted malts help the pH go low to some extent (depending upon other factors but usually) and when brewing blonde ale (Beirmuncher's Blonde is OMG!) there is no dark grain involved...
 
Sodium Bicarbonate has 2 CO3's, Carbonate molecules in ...

Sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3 has one bicarbonate, HCO3-, ion in it. Calcium carbonate, CaCO3 has one carbonate, CO3--, ion in it. When calcium carbonate is dissolved naturally and the pH is around 8

CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O --> Ca++ + 2HCO3-

2 bicarbonate ions arise from each molecule of limestone. Perhaps that's what you are thinking of.
 
Wow Guys,

You really went over my head on that one, and I work in a water lab... Again, I think I will stick with spring water. Mostly because it's easy but also because my LHBS doesn't carry minerals.. Thanks again though for your help.

I'd probably go with RO water, and not spring water. "Spring water" is really not defined, and you don't know what's in it.

As an example, there is a city where I live called Crystal Falls. A guy opened a bottled water business in this town, called Crystal Spring. This water is 100% city of Crystal Falls tap water. It's spring water, technically, since it comes from underground springs I guess. It's pretty high in bicarbonate.

But RO water is RO water. There will be a few trace minerals and stuff in it, since the RO process doesn't strip 100% out, but it's close enough to 0 to be fine. Then, you can use some calcium chloride (see the water primer) to add back a wee bit of calcium. If your LHBS doesn't sell CaCl2 or CaS04 (gypsum), it's easy enough to get some online. Or go without, because you can still make a mighty fine beer with 100% RO water.
 
If you are trying to say that acid dissolves limestone

CaCO3 + 2H+ --> Ca++ + 2HCO3-

that is true but adding acid doesn't necessarily change the pH as noted above. And even if you change the pH the solubility is still governed by

-log[Ca++] - log[CO3--] >= pKs

......Thus the addition of chalk to mash is unpredictable because by the time equilibrium would be reached we would be putting away our brew gear. One is better off using calcium hydroxide. In neither case can there be any pretense that any particular water profile has been emulated.

But as noted there should never be any reason to add carbonate or bicarbonate as mash water at pH 5.2 contains very little of it (6 % of the total carbo) not to mention that it doesn't taste very good.

This is what I was referring to. I understand the pH buffering of cabonate and bicarbonate ions and how these in a mash can affect when/if the pH changes and to what degree. I guess I was simply overlooking the carbo part since, as you pointed out, it is not relevant in brewing other than when it is present in large amount. I was more focused on what happens to the Ca++ ion, which is important to brewing. Would it be better to use calcium chloride and calcium sulfate and avoid carbonates completely? Are not some carbonates useful?



What brewers are interested in is particular levels of ion concentration expressed in mg/L or mEq/L though there is no real reason why mmol/L couldn't be used.

I didn't mean mmol/L as a unit specifically, but that brewers are interested in the actual amounts of ions present; ppm, mg/L, mmol/L, whatever is easiest for the particular brewer. I use mg/L, but also, sort of, visualize ion concentrations as molar masses based on the molecular weights....just how my brain works, I guess.


It's not really complex - it's easily done in a spreadsheet where the difficulties are more related to the bookkeeping aspects than the hairiness of the math or chemistry. Excel has a very powerful feature called the Solver which tries values for pH until balance is found.

I still contend that brewing water chemistry is complex, or at least more difficult to fully understand than a lot of other aspects of the brewing process. Otherwise, there would not be so many posts in the Brew Science section devoted to brewing water. The spreadsheets make it super easy for brewers to find needed values and change them with a few strokes of the keys. However, how these values are calculated is complex to most let alone the chemistry that occurs during the mash and the equilibrium, replacement, and decomposition equations in a highly dynamic system.

It's the same for all brewing, you can make it what you want it to be in terms of complexity.
 
For me it is all about consistency, to be able to reproduce your brews. If you are on any water system that varies it is super important to treat you water to keep it consistent. We could argue all day that RO water is a better place to start but of course it depends on your scale. A commercial brewery I've done water work for has a shallow well they use because it is impossible to make a cost effective beer for them with RO water whether they buy it or make it themselves. Their water varies from Tuesday to Thursday and if they make the same type of beer in the same week it will, of course vary in taste. To end that fiasco they treat their water on Thursday ;p Tuesday's water is fine...
 
...has a shallow well they use because it is impossible to make a cost effective beer for them with RO water whether they buy it or make it themselves.

I'd be interested in knowing more about the thinking here. I spoke to one gent who has an expensive water source and doesn't have a convenient way to dispose of the concentrate but your guys have free water so I'm wondering about the cost aspect. The systems themselves aren't that expensive. I'm looking at a 1000 GPD unit for a brewpub I advise that I can install for about 3K. Yes there will be some costs for electricity to push the water through. Perhaps I'm hand waving those away when I shouldn't be? Replacement membranes? Other maintenance costs?
 
Well, you're on the right track with your cost analysis, and for these guys the well is accessible, it is their unmetered 'free' water source, so they had to decide if the water was usable, which it is, and then if they could build consistent beers with it. At first it was decided to just brew different beers on each days, it turns out that the pH on Thursday is 8.2 ish and 7.7 ish on Tuesday and it had to do with the level of the well and for whatever other natural reasons yet it was consistent. 'Expensive external source' sounds, expensive :) RA system might easily win out in this case.
 
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