ChocoNana Hef - Will this work?

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Brulosopher

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Alright... my homebrew club (San Joaquin Worthogs) is having a "Specialty" competition being judged in April. I just had a fantastic 1.5 year old spiced Porter made by another member, which he plans to submit in this very comp. Since I don't have the time to age anything, I figured I'd submit something really weird, though hopefully surprisingly tasty. I came up with the idea of making a Hefeweizen using WLP300, fermented around 65F to produce more banana character, then adding cacao nibs and a vanilla bean for the last week of fermentation. My thought is to shoot for a flavor similar to the old chocolate-banana rocket pops (from the ice cream truck) of my youth. The recipe I've come up with so far is below, suggestions for change are very much appreciated!

GRAINS
6.00 lbs White Wheat Malt
4.25 lbs NW Pale Malt
0.25 lbs C10

HOPS
10 grams Hallertau Mittelfrueh @ 60 mins (9.1 IBU)
10 grams Hallertau Mittelfrueh @ 10 mins (1.8 IBU)

YEAST
WLP300 - Hefeweizen Ale Yeast

NIBS & VANILLA
4 oz Cacao Nibs & 1 Vanilla Bean (split and chopped) added 3 days into fermentation, sit for additional 7 days

Mash Temp: 152F
Fermentation: Pitch at 64F, let rise to 66F over 3 days, add nibs/vanilla bean, beer let free-rise up to 70F over next 7 days, cold crash to 34F for 2 days, keg and carbonate for 7 days

I've never used nibs and I'm wondering a couple things- first, will 4 oz impart enough flavor, and second, what impact will it have on the color of the beer?

Cheers!
 
This sounds like a pretty good recipe. I tried something similar in a stout, but I had a few issues. I had the same thought to ferment a little warm to bring out the banana, but I fermented way too warm. Taking into account the increased temp due to fermentation activity, I'd put it at 75 -80F as my ferment temp. 65 F sounds like a much better fermentation temp. :) 4 oz of nibs will be plenty. That's how much I used and I got plenty of chocolate flavor/bitterness. Sorry I can't help you out on the color since I used mine in a stout, so the affect on color would be unnoticeable.
 
This sounds like a pretty good recipe. I tried something similar in a stout, but I had a few issues. I had the same thought to ferment a little warm to bring out the banana, but I fermented way too warm. Taking into account the increased temp due to fermentation activity, I'd put it at 75 -80F as my ferment temp. 65 F sounds like a much better fermentation temp. :) 4 oz of nibs will be plenty. That's how much I used and I got plenty of chocolate flavor/bitterness. Sorry I can't help you out on the color since I used mine in a stout, so the affect on color would be unnoticeable.

Thanks, man. My guess is most people use nibs in darker beers and hence won't be able to provide much info on the impact they'll have in a pale beer. I was chatting with a pal of mine and he said he got more banana, and nearly no clove, out of WLP300 when fermented cooler. Clove is an off-flavor phenolic, in my opinion, so I want to keep that at an absolute minimum. I've got really good temp control, so I'm not too concerned about that.
 
Thanks, man. My guess is most people use nibs in darker beers and hence won't be able to provide much info on the impact they'll have in a pale beer. I was chatting with a pal of mine and he said he got more banana, and nearly no clove, out of WLP300 when fermented cooler. Clove is an off-flavor phenolic, in my opinion, so I want to keep that at an absolute minimum. I've got really good temp control, so I'm not too concerned about that.

Well, there's only one way to find out how it's going to affect the color. I personally think you might get a little of the chocolate color, but not a whole lot. I didn't have any temp control when I did mine, but now I've acquired some things to control temp. If I decide to try this again I'll make sure the temp is controlled much better.

I am interested to see how this comes out for you. Keep us posted.

Cheers :mug:
 
Its a bit complicated, but a general rule of thumb for hefe's is: warmer = more banana and less clove. However, 300 is known for its banana character, so it might not matter too much anyway. Personally, I'd use the 300 and ferment around 66F-68F to get banana over clove, but I'm not positive on that, and I love the clove flavor over the banana anyway. Perhaps do some more research before you settle on a fermentation temp.

Underpitching might increase the banana flavor as well, look into that.
 
ghpeel said:
Its a bit complicated, but a general rule of thumb for hefe's is: warmer = more banana and less clove. However, 300 is known for its banana character, so it might not matter too much anyway. Personally, I'd use the 300 and ferment around 66F-68F to get banana over clove, but I'm not positive on that, and I love the clove flavor over the banana anyway. Perhaps do some more research before you settle on a fermentation temp.

Underpitching might increase the banana flavor as well, look into that.

Great advice, particularly regarding underpitching. I appreciate it.
 
I forgot to mention it, but this was my experience with the banana split stout. Tons of banana by pitching a single vial into 5 gallons of 1.070 wort.

I'd be hard-pressed not to make a starter, it just wouldn't feel right. Perhaps what I'll do is cut the starter size in half, basically just wake the yeast up. I also like to harvest yeast from my starters, so that's another reason. My OG is going to be closer to 1.050.

I've been looking for cocoa nibs on the internet and I'm wondering where the best place is to buy them?
 
If your normal starters are 1qt @ 1.040, then maybe do 1.5qts. Once its crashed, only pitch 1/3rd of the slurry, and save the other 2/3rds for your next normal beer. That would give you a half-pitch for this beer, and a normal pitch for the next.
 
If your normal starters are 1qt @ 1.040, then maybe do 1.5qts. Once its crashed, only pitch 1/3rd of the slurry, and save the other 2/3rds for your next normal beer. That would give you a half-pitch for this beer, and a normal pitch for the next.

Good call. It's so weird considering purposely under-pitching... but I'll do it for the sake of the :ban:
 
One last suggestion, then I'll leave you to your delicious experiment: Have you ever had Well's Banana Bread Beer? Its an amber ale with some artificial banana flavor extract added. It tastes a LOT like the banana runts candy.

I'm not crazy about it, as I prefer the more 'natural' banana flavor from Hefe yeast and wheat malt, but its definitely something you should check out. Google around for clone recipes and banana flavor extract if this is something you want to look in to. In short, banana flavor extract would make the beer taste more like banana candy, and less like Hefe, so consider your target audience. People used to Hefes and such might before the yeast-derived flavors, but people who aren't as into beer as the rest of us might enjoy the extract version more.
 
One last suggestion, then I'll leave you to your delicious experiment: Have you ever had Well's Banana Bread Beer? Its an amber ale with some artificial banana flavor extract added. It tastes a LOT like the banana runts candy.

I'm not crazy about it, as I prefer the more 'natural' banana flavor from Hefe yeast and wheat malt, but its definitely something you should check out. Google around for clone recipes and banana flavor extract if this is something you want to look in to. In short, banana flavor extract would make the beer taste more like banana candy, and less like Hefe, so consider your target audience. People used to Hefes and such might before the yeast-derived flavors, but people who aren't as into beer as the rest of us might enjoy the extract version more.

I've never had it and I'm not too interested... I mean, I'd try it if someone handed it to me ;). My audience are 2 ranked BJCP judges, as this beer will be brewed primarily for a club competition in March. I appreciate all of your advice, so please give it freely!

Cheers.
 
I found mine at a local co-op food store.

Cool. I'm thinking about checking out Whole Foods first. If they don't have it, I found some decent looking stuff on Amazon. I'm assuming I should buy the "raw" nibs, right?
 
I made a minor tweak to the grain bill, here's how it looks now:

5.00 lbs White Wheat Malt
4.25 lbs Pilsner Malt
1.00 lbs Munich Malt (10L)
0.25 oz Crystal 10

I think the addition of a pound of Munich will add a nice malt backbone. I'm imagining a chocolate dipped banana, dipped in waffle cone bits. We'll just have to see, I guess.

How long does the beer have to be in contact with nibs and vanilla? Here's my plan, which I'm willing to change:

- Ferment 7 days
- Add nibs and vanilla to fermenter, leave for additional 5-7 days
- Cold crash for 24-36 hours
- Keg and carbonate to about 2.8 volumes

I make big starters (though maybe not for this beer) and have precise control of fermentation temp; I've never seen any benefit to leaving beer in the fermenter for 3 weeks. I also never use secondaries, not even for dry hopping, though I could if I "needed" to- my thinking is the nibs will be easier to clean up afterwards from a bucket, so that's my plan.

Thanks!
 
I left my nibs in for two weeks, but 7 days ought to do the trick. I put mine in one of those grain bags you can get at the LHBS just like I do with dry hops. Makes it a cinch to just pull 'em out come bottling/kegging time.
 
So I updated the recipe. I backed off just a bit on the Pils, upped the wheat, added 6 oz C120 and 4 oz Carafa II. I wanted to avoid a murky brown, diarrhea looking beer. So now the base is closer to a Dunkelweizen, which I think will play very nice. Brewing this on Monday!
 
Yeast pitched, 1.052 OG (expected), pretty dark. I eliminated the 15 minute addition of Saaz and replace the 60 minute addition with Magnum to reach the same IBU (14-ish). I think the Carafa II and Special B will add a nice richness to the finished beer.
 
You should call it "Ape $%#@ Ale" or maybe "Hurling Monkey Hef"...you know, because monkeys are know to throw poo...and the bananas...and the chocolate...and poop is brown too...and monkeys eat bananas...and, you know? Right?


Anyways, subscribed
 
Bierliebhaber said:
You should call it "Ape $%#@ Ale" or maybe "Hurling Monkey Hef"...you know, because monkeys are know to throw poo...and the bananas...and the chocolate...and poop is brown too...and monkeys eat bananas...and, you know? Right?

Anyways, subscribed

Certainly something to chew on... ;)
 
After 9 days, the sulfur smell is starting to dissipate. I'll take a same today and hope the "base" is at least good enough.
 
Awesome. I'm excited to find out how this comes out because I'd like to brew it sometime and I've got 4 oz of cacao nibs in my pantry I want to use on something.
 
nukebrewer said:
Awesome. I'm excited to find out how this comes out because I'd like to brew it sometime and I've got 4 oz of cacao nibs in my pantry I want to use on something.

I plan to add the nibs and vanilla either today or tomorrow. I think I'll soak it all in a very small amount of vodka then toss it all in primary, where I'll let it ride for another week. Thoughts?
 
That sounds good and it's something I didn't do the last time I used nibs. I think the vodka is a good idea to get a little extraction instead of relying on the extraction to happen in the beer.
 
So I'm sticking with 4 oz nibs and 2 stripped/chopped vanilla beans... they're currently sitting in a few oz of cheap ass vodka. I plan to throw it all in primary tomorrow night an let it go another 10 days or so. Unless that's a terrible idea...
 
The nibs and vanilla have been in the beer for a week now. I sampled this morning and the beer tastes pretty good. I'm not picking up huge cacao or vanilla notes just yet, though perhaps those will kick up once it is carbonated and chilled.
 
It's been in the keg a few days now and admittedly is not yet fully carb'd. Still, I'm having a hard time believing this beer is going to come out well... which sucks because it's for a club competition. A friend/club member sampled it yesterday and seems to think it's just a tad green. While I do believe it will at least be better once fully carbonated, I just don't think the finished product is going to match what I envisioned. Oh well. I'll probably still turn it in for the comp, just because I don't really care if I win ;)

To those who use nibs and vanilla regularly- do the flavors tend to diminish or strengthen over time (in keg)?

Cheers!
 
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