New Danstar Belle Saison Dry Yeast?

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midlantic

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Anyone heard anything about a new Danstar "Belle Saison" dry yeast?

http://www.ldcarlson.com/Sellsheets/P9526.pdf

http://www.danstaryeast.com/products/belle-saison-yeast

The LDCarlson page says "Coming Fall 2012" but I haven't seen a sign that it's for sale yet.

Any possibility that this is a dry version of an existing liquid yeast? Or possibly a different name for something sold out outside of the US but not available in the States? Or maybe the same as something like T58? Or is something completely brand new? Or even something long on the market that I just haven't figured out?
 
Sounds interesting. I will keep an eye out for it and probably give it a try when I can get my hands on some.
 
Smart marketing. IIPA, Saison, & Cask beer are very popular as of late and now there is a dry yeast alternative.
 
sounds like something i'd want to have on hand at all times. i like to keep an extra pack of dry yeast in the fridge in case of emergencies. if this is a true saison yeast it'll be perfect for pitching into a brew that stalled and that i've heated up in hopes of getting it to finish. the saison yeast should get to work quite comfortably without producing too many undesirable off-flavors b/c of the heat.
 
I've all but abandoned liquid yeast lately. The convenience of dry yeast (and price) is a lot more desirable to me. I don't have to use a starter and I'm not really looking for a specific profile most of the time, so I'm all for more dry varieties. So far I've found that I can make some pretty darn tasty beers with Notty, US-05, S-04, S-33, and T-58. T-58 is my least favorite though. Tends to be a little peppery for most of the styles I like to make. I'm looking forward to a saison strain.
 
the proposed need for 2 packs is a little disappointing, especially considering the increased price.

i've just noticed that Danstar recommends the same dosing amount for all their ale yeasts - 2 packs per 5 gallons. according to their fact sheet, each pack contains 5x10^9 cells. unless my math skillz have gone completely out the window, that's 500 million cells (500,000,000). so 2 packs would be pitching 1 billion cells - which is what the total population of cells in a yeast cake is after fermentation. so, in other words, when pitching dry yeast we are not assuming any population growth? i guess that would explain why aeration isn't needed - O2 is required for reproduction, and pitching that high means reproduction isn't required.

since so many flavors come from the growth phase, should we pitch less than the suggested amount, which will cause the yeast to grow?

thoughts?
 
the proposed need for 2 packs is a little disappointing, especially considering the increased price.

Yes the idea of spending $11 on yeast alone or almost 2 x what I would pay for fresh liquid yeast poses a problem. I guess if the results are outstanding (say along the lines of 3724) but with the ease of use of dry yeast then it would arguably be worth it. Interested in hearing about the experiences/results of those who have used this yeast.
 
That makes sense to me. I've heard Jamil say on his show that you should slightly underpitch with belgian style yeasts, as the strain that it can cause will add some of those desirable flavors you're looking for (cloves, phenols, etc.).

Also, I've never pitched more than one packet for a batch before and have never had an issue with underpitching (Albeit with beers under 1.060).

I'll probably try to make a table saison with this yeast with one pack and see how it turns out. It's still a little disappointing that the only difference between this and a liquid yeast version is only $.75, though.
 
That makes sense to me. I've heard Jamil say on his show that you should slightly underpitch with belgian style yeasts, as the strain that it can cause will add some of those desirable flavors you're looking for (cloves, phenols, etc.).
right, many of those flavors come during the growth stage - they by-products of yeast reproduction. underpitching = need for more growth to compensate for low population = more flavors. so if we're pitching 1 billion cells, there will be no growth... so no (or less) flavors?


Also, I've never pitched more than one packet for a batch before and have never had an issue with underpitching (Albeit with beers under 1.060).
which also makes sense - one pack is 500 millions cells, which is way more than the suggested amount. the yeast will reproduce a little to make up the missing population. at least that's what makes sense to me.


I'll probably try to make a table saison with this yeast with one pack and see how it turns out. It's still a little disappointing that the only difference between this and a liquid yeast version is only $.75, though.
using just one pack might actually lead to a better beer - if i'm right, you'll get some growth (and more flavors) with one pack but won't get any with 2.

i wonder if Danstar is recommending 2 packs to ensure that the beer ferments completely, and to boost sales. sort of the opposite approach taken by liquid yeast sellers who encourage us to under-pitch.
 
If I may interject.....I have been a long time user of Danstar I have used all of their yeasts(execpt the lager) I have used them with and with out making starters and never used more than 1 pack in any brew even my moneter 14% Imperial Milk Stout. I see no reason to buy 2 packs of this yeast I just purchased 3 packs of the saison yeast for evaluation. I have done the same for all of the danstar yeasts. I will make 3 5 gallon beers(same grain bill or extract) I will pitch dry yeast in one the rehydrated yeast in the next and last I will make a starter. I keep notes on fermentation progression. With the others time seems to be the only factor the starters worked to fg much faster. There has been only a minor diffrence in flavors and aromas between all 3 methods. I beleive the diffrences would not be noticible to the average person. I will proceed with my evaluations asap and report back when done.
 
If I may interject.....I have been a long time user of Danstar I have used all of their yeasts(execpt the lager) I have used them with and with out making starters and never used more than 1 pack in any brew even my moneter 14% Imperial Milk Stout. I see no reason to buy 2 packs of this yeast I just purchased 3 packs of the saison yeast for evaluation. I have done the same for all of the danstar yeasts. I will make 3 5 gallon beers(same grain bill or extract) I will pitch dry yeast in one the rehydrated yeast in the next and last I will make a starter. I keep notes on fermentation progression. With the others time seems to be the only factor the starters worked to fg much faster. There has been only a minor diffrence in flavors and aromas between all 3 methods. I beleive the diffrences would not be noticible to the average person. I will proceed with my evaluations asap and report back when done.

Great that you are going to test this yeast out under varying conditions. Looking forward to your results...
 
I am guessing it will be late January or early feb, before I can report on this, I do not expect it to arive before jan1 I will be making this brew an extract for simplicity and speed, 6lb wheat extract ekg hops for bittering only.
 
the proposed need for 2 packs is a little disappointing, especially considering the increased price.

i've just noticed that Danstar recommends the same dosing amount for all their ale yeasts - 2 packs per 5 gallons. according to their fact sheet, each pack contains 5x10^9 cells. unless my math skillz have gone completely out the window, that's 500 million cells (500,000,000). so 2 packs would be pitching 1 billion cells - which is what the total population of cells in a yeast cake is after fermentation. so, in other words, when pitching dry yeast we are not assuming any population growth? i guess that would explain why aeration isn't needed - O2 is required for reproduction, and pitching that high means reproduction isn't required.

since so many flavors come from the growth phase, should we pitch less than the suggested amount, which will cause the yeast to grow?

thoughts?

5x10^9 == 5 billion, not 500 million, and I'd wager that's 5 billion per gram of dry yeast.

EDIT: I just checked. The PDF datasheet for Nottingham (should be the same as the other ale yeasts I'd imagine) says there are at least 5 x 10^9 (5 billion) cells per gram of dry yeast.
 
5x10^9 == 5 billion, not 500 million, and I'd wager that's 5 billion per gram of dry yeast.

EDIT: I just checked. The PDF datasheet for Nottingham (should be the same as the other ale yeasts I'd imagine) says there are at least 5 x 10^9 (5 billion) cells per gram of dry yeast.
yeah, my numbers were off in my original post. i was all over the place... sorry. i blame it on the homebrew :drunk:

in another thread, someone mentioned that 5 x 10^9 (5 billion) cells per gram is indeed the minimum, with 20 billion/g being a more realistic number for reasonably fresh and well handled (refrigerated) dry yeast. therefore an 11.5 g packet should contain about 220 billion cells. this is typically the amount of cells ones pitches in an average 5.5 gallon batch.
 
Just got this yeast in a brewers best kit. The kit Making a Belgian Golden Ale 7.5-8% and came with one pack. Ill post results in a few weeks.
 
I'm doing a hoppy table strength Saison with one of pack of this stuff tomorrow. The grain is somewhat based off NB's Petite Saison with Zythos hops for all additions to a total of about 25 IBU.

I'm thinking of rehydrating, using my pure o2 setup, and pitching at 65f and holding there for 1.5 days and then letting free rise to wherever it wants.

I'll definitely be reporting back with my findings as I haven't seen too many reports of how this stuff is. Then again, this will be my first ever brewed Saison, so we'll see.
 
I pitched one rehydrated pack into 63F (5.5 gal @ 1.045) wort and set the fridge to allow the beer to free rise to 67F at which I'll likely hold it there for 36 hours and then let it free rise to whenever it wants.

I saw activity this morning roughly 17 hours after pitching.
 
Just used Belle Saison in a witbier/saison hybrid. Was pleasantly surprised at the phenols and true saison flavors the yeast produced. Primary fermented in the upper 70s and got 85% attenuation. I brew a lot of saisons and am planning a true saison with the second pack of Belle Saison yeast I bought. I have used just about every saison strain and my favorite still is the White Labs Saison II and Wyeasts 3624 Belgian Saison, even if it does stall out at 1030. The key to a great saison is fermenting at warm temperatures which I think is hard for some home brewers. I have fermented in the 90s and had great results. Also using DAP yeast nutrient (diammonium phosphate) helps a lot. The reason is that saison yeasts are cousins to wine yeasts perform well with DAP and like warmer temps. Go to gonzobrewers.com "forum" section and see all my saison recipes. Happy saison brewing to all!!
 
any spice?

banana flavor is typically caused by esters, which saisons aren't really known for. more typical are phenols which have a spicy taste.

Yea I was very surprised by the banana. That was my hydrometer sample ill post more in about a week since I just kegged it.
 
Some of those banana flavors could be from getting a yeasty sample. I did not experience any banana flavors and I used about 50% wheat malt in my grist. I got the typical saison esters with a lot of fruitiness with dry finish.
 
Some of those banana flavors could be from getting a yeasty sample. I did not experience any banana flavors and I used about 50% wheat malt in my grist. I got the typical saison esters with a lot of fruitiness with dry finish.

Glad to hear that I will try again as soon as it's carbed up
 
Some of those banana flavors could be from getting a yeasty sample. I did not experience any banana flavors and I used about 50% wheat malt in my grist. I got the typical saison esters with a lot of fruitiness with dry finish.
are you of the opinion that wheat in the grist affects banana flavors?

it's my understanding that banana comes from the yeast. the reason why wheat beers often have banana flavors is because of the hefeweizen yeast produces banana esters, not because of the wheat. you could brew a 100% barley beer using hefe yeast and still get bananas.
 
sweetcell said:
are you of the opinion that wheat in the grist affects banana flavors?

it's my understanding that banana comes from the yeast. the reason why wheat beers often have banana flavors is because of the hefeweizen yeast produces banana esters, not because of the wheat. you could brew a 100% barley beer using hefe yeast and still get bananas.

It's a combination of the yeast and the mash schedule. A ferulic rest (if I recall correctly) can increase taster perception of banana flavors. Not saying that's what's going on here, just an example of how mash temp plays into this.
 
I think that wheat malt can create some awfully interesting flavors with any yeast. Especially at warmer temps. I certainly understand that the hefe-yeast is the main contributor to this flavor but a high percentage of wheat gives any brew a bready and perhaps some banana flavor. Especially at high fermentation temps.
 
I think that a yeasty sample with this particular yeast strain could be perceived as having some banana esters.
 
I just think that a yeasty sample with this particular yeast strain could be perceived as having some banana like esters
 
I pitched one rehydrated pack into 63F (5.5 gal @ 1.045) wort and set the fridge to allow the beer to free rise to 67F at which I'll likely hold it there for 36 hours and then let it free rise to whenever it wants.

I saw activity this morning roughly 17 hours after pitching.

Finally tasted mine after a couple days in keg after force carbing, and even after finishing at 1.003, this is great stuff and goes down like nothing. My experience with Saisons is limited but I'd say mine with this yeast is too clean and would have benefited greatly from an increase in temp early in the ferment, BUT as it stands now ester wise (closer to wyeast 3787) it's still an awesome drinking beer that I will gladly rebrew with this yeast again. All in all, very happy with the dry saison yeast.

It's got me wondering what it would be like in your typical Belgian ales like dubbels, tripel or quad if the temp was kept restrained. Bet it'd be worth trying.
 
Finally tasted mine after a couple days in keg after force carbing, and even after finishing at 1.003, this is great stuff and goes down like nothing. My experience with Saisons is limited but I'd say mine with this yeast is too clean and would have benefited greatly from an increase in temp early in the ferment, BUT as it stands now ester wise (closer to wyeast 3787) it's still an awesome drinking beer that I will gladly rebrew with this yeast again. All in all, very happy with the dry saison yeast.

It's got me wondering what it would be like in your typical Belgian ales like dubbels, tripel or quad if the temp was kept restrained. Bet it'd be worth trying.

Very cool. Do you mind posting your recipe? :)

Rick
 
Very cool. Do you mind posting your recipe? :)

Rick

Not at all....

5.5 gal
1.040-1.043OG
85% effic (my efficiency is through the roof on low gravity beers, so keep % the same but adjust for your system. Also, I brew for 5.5 post boil.)
FG 1.003 (wasn't looking for this, but oh well)

4.5lb Belgian Pils
2.75 Vienna
12 oz Torrified wheat
Mash @ 150
60 min boil

.25 oz zythos @ 60"
.5 oz zythos @ 10"
2 oz zythos at 2"

I'd ferment warmer but still pitch cool (63-65) and probably let it free rise to 72 and either hold there or let it free rise completely with no temp control -> all depends on how much yeast derived character you want. The zythos, believe it or not plays. That hop to me, comes off with a lemon line sprite like character and then drops off into an herbal note. Another poster on here, bierhaus15 recommended I try zythos in a hoppy saison and the way this beer is tasting right now, I think he was right.
 
My experience with Saisons is limited but I'd say mine with this yeast is too clean and would have benefited greatly from an increase in temp early in the ferment...

what roughly was your temp schedule? i am looking to use this soon (i hope) and i usually let the temps take off for saison (high 70s °F to 80s) early rather than later.
 
what roughly was your temp schedule? i am looking to use this soon (i hope) and i usually let the temps take off for saison (high 70s °F to 80s) early rather than later.

I pitched at 63F and set the fridge to allow the beer to free rise to 67f (probably should have let it go to 70-72f) and then at 30 hours in, and for arbitrary reasons I bumped the temp to allow the beer to ferment at 69f. After the 3rd day I pulled it from the fridge to let it free rise to wherever it wanted, which it probably didn't get north of 75f, and by then it was done anyway I'm sure. After a sh*tty day at work I sampled some more tonight and although its a little cleaner than it should be, it's still a nice drinking beer.
 
nice. i am heading to the LHBS in a few and plan to p/u a few packs. probably brew a rye saison tomorrow nite if all goes well. still debating belle saision or the olde standby wlp566.
 
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