Saison de Provision

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Saccharomyces

Be good to your yeast...
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I'm feeling inspired by the descriptions of historical saison provision beers. Unlike the sweet stuff we are drinking today these would be very dry and sour from lactic bacteria and brett.

Which got me to thinking... Why not brew like a special Saison, but toss in some bugs for secondary fermentation. I present ...

Saison de Provision
16E - Belgian Specialty Ale - An attempt at recreating a historical Wallonian Biere de Garde

OG 1.060, FG ??? (1.002-ish expected), 35 IBU.

81% Belgian Pils
9% Vienna
7% Flaked Wheat
3% Belgian Aromatic

Mash 158*F for 60 minutes. Boil 90.

Hops:
2 oz Goldings 90
.5 oz Goldings 20
.5 oz Goldings 2

Yeast:
WLP565 1L starter (primary, 2 weeks, pitch @66*F raise to 80*F)
Wyeast 3763 Roeselare Blend (secondary, 6 months)
 
If I feel adventuresome I may turbid mash this beer since that is almost certainly how it would have been done historically; back then, they didn't have thermometers so they kept infusing boiling water as well as returning some runnings to the mash after boiling them and running the remainder to the kettle. This would have ramped the temperature through the various protein rest, beta rest, and alpha rest temp ranges without them knowing what they were really doing. It also would have left some unconverted starches in the boil which are beneficial for the souring organisms.

If I do so I would start around 131*F since our malt today is fully modified. The books I have read claim the acrosphire would have been about half the length of the grain when it was malted in those days which is severely undermodified and would have required a very long protein rest.
 
Looks good! I'm interested in seeing how this works. Could you do a turbid mash by draining some of the wort out of your MLT during the mashing stage? Seems like that would be the same as putting a sieve into the top of the mash and trying to scoop it out there...
 
Looks good! I'm interested in seeing how this works. Could you do a turbid mash by draining some of the wort out of your MLT during the mashing stage? Seems like that would be the same as putting a sieve into the top of the mash and trying to scoop it out there...

That's what I'm thinking. Infuse, draw off the liquid, boil that, while that is heating infuse the next round, etc etc.
:rockin:
 
I've been doing mashouts like that for a while because I like to fill my MLT up pretty full so I can't add more water :) Been getting nice efficiency.
 
Typically the beers would have been aged 4-6 months before tapping the cask so I think I'm going to stick pretty close to that, though some of them may have been aged an extra year (!) and would have been pretty funky after that long.
 
Typically the beers would have been aged 4-6 months before tapping the cask so I think I'm going to stick pretty close to that, though some of them may have been aged an extra year (!) and would have been pretty funky after that long.

I've aged a few beers in kegs for up to a couple months in the winter and spring but I wonder about my garage now with the summer temps getting pretty high (90+F). My last Saison fermented at 80F to 85F but it then the temps cooled down and I was able to age in a keg at +/- 70F.

Do you worry much about temp control for the kegs once the beer has been transferred?
 
Yeah, never been a big fan of the spiced saisons I have had, and a beer like this, that will be getting SOO much complexity from the fermentation, it just seems like a damn shame to sully this good beer with some evil spices!
 
I just read up on the Wyeast turbid mash in Wild Brews. The sparge temp is 203!! Crazy how full of starch, dextrins and tannins a wild beer can start with. After all it just becomes food and a year later it is only good flavors that are left behind.
 
You have inspired me to create a bugged Saison. I am scaling up to an 8 gallon batch (5G and a 3G soured batch). I am stepping up a starter of Brett Lambic Blend and WL568 for the soured batch. This should turn out pretty interesting!! Thanks for a great idea.

edit: I know the Brett Lambic Blend might seem weird, but I am hoping that it will impart some tart cherry flavors that will pair nicely with a Saison.
 
Awesome. Did you have roselare left over from the spring, find it somewhere recently, or are you using something else to sour?
 
I have a saison in secondary with orval dregs, and the smells coming out of the airlock are AMAZING! Very interested to see how yours turns out. Especially with the turbid mash.
 
I can say that mine from post #15 turned out really really amazing. I will definitely be doing it again next spring.

Definitely keep us updated on how yours turns out Sacc.
 
I am inspired to try something similar. My LHBS made up the following extract menu for me based on Sacc's recipee.

11.5 lbs pilsner liquid extract
1.13 lbs Vienna Malt grain
1.00 lbs Flaked Soft White Wheat grain
050 lbs Aromatic Malt grain

Steeping grain 155-158 deg F for 30 minutes the a 90 minute boil.

Hop schedule using Styrian Golding Hops:

2 oz. for 90 minutes
1/2 oz. for 20 minutes
1/2 oz at 2 minutes

I plan to pitch White Labs WLP Saison Ale yeast for fermentation and then pitch White Labs WLP 655 Belgian Sour Mix 1 for aging. Bulk age for at least six months then bottle.

I am most interested in any comments, advice, or recommendations.
 
Nothing like a man who's willing to share his cake.

My attempt is still bulk aging and I snuck a taste the other day. It wasn't bad. I'm thinking of bottling mine here pretty soon. How heavily would you carb this stuff? I am also thinking of adding a bottle of Orval to the bottling bucket.
 
I'm feeling inspired by the descriptions of historical saison provision beers. Unlike the sweet stuff we are drinking today these would be very dry and sour from lactic bacteria and brett.

Which got me to thinking... Why not brew like a special Saison, but toss in some bugs for secondary fermentation. I present ...

Saison de Provision
16E - Belgian Specialty Ale - An attempt at recreating a historical Wallonian Biere de Garde

OG 1.060, FG ??? (1.002-ish expected), 35 IBU.

81% Belgian Pils
9% Vienna
7% Flaked Wheat
3% Belgian Aromatic

Mash 148*F for 90 minutes. Boil 90.

Hops:
2 oz Goldings 90
.5 oz Goldings 20
.5 oz Goldings 2

Yeast:
WLP565 1L starter
Wyeast 3763 Roeselare Blend

Pitch both strains. Primary 1 week 80*F, secondary 2 months 80*F. Keg. Age until it's done. :rockin:

I'm looking at brewing this grain bill this weekend.

Have you tasted this yet?

I haven't done a sour before. I have a few questions:

Why mash so low? I was thinking of mashing higher to give the bugs some things to eat that the saccharomyces couldn't consume. Or would that just leave it too sweet in the end?

I'm going with the French saison yeast instead of the Belgian. Any thoughts on pitching that and Roeselare at the same time vs. pitching the saison first and the roeselare later?
 
I can say that mine from post #15 turned out really really amazing. I will definitely be doing it again next spring.

Definitely keep us updated on how yours turns out Sacc.

Did you pitch both at once? Can you elaborate on "really really amazing"--was it noticeably sour? Do you happen to remember your mash temp and OG/FG?

Thanks for your time!
 
I'm about to bottle mine. It has been in the secondary since November. It smelled heavenly the last time I took a whiff but I have yet to taste it.

Did you pitch both yeasts at once, or did you wait a while for the bugs? Did you mash as low as you posted earlier? Do you think that worked well for the brew?
 
Did you pitch both at once? Can you elaborate on "really really amazing"--was it noticeably sour? Do you happen to remember your mash temp and OG/FG?

Thanks for your time!

I would have to look up the beersmith for the OG/FG but it should be close to what is listed in Brewing Classic Styles for the Saison since that is where I pulled the recipe from.

I pitched both the sour blend and the saison blend at the same time and fermented exactly like a saison, starting at 70 and ramping to the mid 80s. There was a very funky brett aroma but no real tartness until maybe 6 months down the road and it started to get a bit of noticeable sourness. Most everyone that has tried it really enjoyed it; however, it did not fare well in a competition because they said the brett overpowered the saison characteristics which I agree with from a stylistic standpoint. But, it is still a really good beer that I will probably try to rebrew soon.
 
Mine has been in the bottle for about four months. I took a few for a weekend visit to my sons. We both really liked it. It had a great flavor and was a refreshing beer to drink. This fall I'm going to get a couple more batches started.
 
I pitched both the sour blend and the saison blend at the same time and fermented exactly like a saison, starting at 70 and ramping to the mid 80s. There was a very funky brett aroma but no real tartness until maybe 6 months down the road and it started to get a bit of noticeable sourness.

I did a similar thing on 17 June--took my Saison recipe, mashed @155F to leave something for the bugs, pitched Roeselaire and 3711 at the same time.

I racked to a keg after a month to sit for a few months. As long as I had it open I tasted a sample, and to my surprise it's already got a noticeable (though not overly strong) sour/cherry pie note to it. It's was quite nice.
 
Hello Sacch, I am thinking its time for me to brew another batch of this. Have you thought about any tweaks to your recipee?
 
I did a similar thing on 17 June--took my Saison recipe, mashed @155F to leave something for the bugs, pitched Roeselaire and 3711 at the same time.

I racked to a keg after a month to sit for a few months. As long as I had it open I tasted a sample, and to my surprise it's already got a noticeable (though not overly strong) sour/cherry pie note to it. It's was quite nice.

This was a big hit. After 5 months it was noticeably (though not puckeringly) sour and went on tap, and it's only gotten better since. Definitely brewing this again.
 
The only thing I would change is next time I will add bottling yeast and increase the carbonation slightly. I did not add bottling yeast to the batch, and I forgot that Brett only produce about 2/3 of the CO2 that Sacc do when they ferment sugar, so the beer is seriously undercarbonated in the bottles -- so much so it's difficult to get the cork out. The last bottle I opened I put in a plastic bottle and carbonated it with a carbonator cap, which with the higher carbonation made it taste a lot more like Fantome than the first few bottles.

I haven't touched them in about three months, as they age they keep getting better, so I'm trying to be patient. :drunk:

Other than the carbonation problem, I wouldn't change a thing.

Re: the spices, you could consider adding a bit of sweet orange peel if you wanted, but definitely nothing more. The WL 565 strain provides all the spiciness you need, and the brett is the star of the show.
 
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