Suggestions for Lager Dry Yeast? S-23 or ???

Hi all,

I have 2 lagers in my list to brew soon, a Vienna and a German Pilsner, but at this time, I won't be able to make a yeast starter using a liquid yeast as I have always done. My question is, what are my options for a lager dry yeast? I was thinking using 2 packs of Saflager S-23 for each brew (both have estimated OGs of approximately 1.050), but I have heard awful things about his yeast as being too fruity and too estery for clean lagers like the ones I'm brewing.

Does anybody have experience with S-23 with the styles mentioned above, or have another recommendation?

Your opinion/help is much appreciated.

Cheers!

No experience with S-23. Love 34/70 though. 2 packets per 5 gallons. Next week I'll be pitching the same yeast for the 7th time. The first pitch was a 5 gallon batch of Dortmunder, a starter if you will. Subsequent pitches were for 10 gallon batches. Saving a pint of thick yeast slurry & repitching can save you a lot. So basically those 2 packets will have brewed 65 gallons of beer. Cheers!!!

I have used S-23 on a couple of batches, W-34/70 on most of my lagers, and S-189 on a few, although that was recently so I don't have an idea of taste yet.

W-34/70 is a champ. It ferments well down into the mid-40s and powers right through to FG. It's clean and neutral IMO.

I was hesitant to use S-23 due to some reviews, but I love both of the beers I have made with it (both Bohemian pilsners). One was fermented warm (around 55 ambient), and one was fermented cold (around 45 ambient). The cooler fermentation batch slowed down near the end so I had to raise the temp to achieve FG, but it was delicious.

S-189 (hard to find) was very slow out of the package (over two weeks to hit FG around 50 degrees), but the next batches that were re-pitched fermented out quickly, which tells me the yeast were not that healthy out of the package (I aerate with pure O2 through a 0.5 micron stone).

It would be really hard for you to go wrong with W-34/70. Two packages of 34/70 (or three packages if you plan to push the temperature way down) rehydrated as per the product sheet instructions into your pilsner, then grab 200 ml or so of your slurry when you rack for lagering after your d-rest to re-pitch into your Vienna lager.

In theory you don't need to aerate when you pitch your dry yeast, but I always do. Definitely aerate for your re-pitched slurry.

Good luck!

Thanks a lot, it looks like 34/70 is the way to go. I have a fridge with a temp controller, so I plan to primary both around 52-54F, so it looks like 2 packages for each would be enough.

I read somewhere that 34/70 does not need a D-rest, is that true or better do it anyway?

Also, do I really need to add yeast slurry to my secondary for lagering? I've never done that before with my lagers using liquid yeast, but I guess I could try if highly recommended. Is it easy to do?

I always raise the lagers up to 58-60F just to make sure the yeast is done so I guess you could call it a D-Rest. I've never detected diacetyl in any of them.

The yeast slurry we're talking about replaces the 2 packs you plan to pitch in the 2nd beer. Use the yeast slurry instead of the 2 packs & save yourself the cost. I use a pint canning jar that has been sanitized in starsan and store the yeast in the fridge until it's ready to use it again. If you brew within a couple of weeks there's no need to make a starter. Just pitch the slurry right out of the fridge. A pint is good for an average (~1.050) 10 gallon batch of lager so for 5 gallons you just need a 1/2 pint. Cheers!!!

hamiltont said:

I always raise the lagers up to 58-60F just to make sure the yeast is done so I guess you could call it a D-Rest. I've never detected diacetyl in any of them.

The yeast slurry we're talking about replaces the 2 packs you plan to pitch in the 2nd beer. Use the yeast slurry instead of the 2 packs & save yourself the cost. I use a pint canning jar that has been sanitized in starsan and store the yeast in the fridge until it's ready to use it again. If you brew within a couple of weeks there's no need to make a starter. Just pitch the slurry right out of the fridge. A pint is good for an average (~1.050) 10 gallon batch of lager so for 5 gallons you just need a 1/2 pint. Cheers!!!

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Got it, thanks. I would use the slurry, except I will brew both in the same day back to back, and have them fermenting simultaneously. But next time, perhaps, I will be able to use the slurry.

34/70. I've tried them all, and done side-by-side comparisons with liquid lager yeasts as well. Highly recommended by me.

Thank you all for the feedback. I'm convinced. I will let you know how they turn out, but it's going to be a while. After the D-rest, I plan to leave both lagering at around 40-44F for while because I won't be available to keg them for another 4 months! That brings me to another question. Would it be OK to lager for 4 months? Never went that far, maximum I have lagered was for 45 days.

Time-wise, as long as you are careful not to oxidize, you'll be fine... should make a great beer...

As to the yeast? Either 34/70 or S23 will work great. I have used both strains commercially (the Weihenstephan strain from a different supplier, in liquid form) and they make great beers. The Weihenstephan strain I have used for Maibock, Bavarian Dunkel and Marzen... S23 I have used on Bo. Pilsner, Marzen, Doppelbock and Schwarzbier. I currently have an S23 fermented Marzen on tap that I believe to be the best beer I have ever made at home.

I actually really like S-23. I know it get's a lot of hate around here but both times I've used it the yeast produced very clean beers. I think the trick is warm fermentation. Like low 60's. It's no bohemian lager (which is my favorite lager yeast) but in a pinch, like when you can't make a starter, it's still makes a great beer.

Indyking said:

I read somewhere that 34/70 does not need a D-rest, is that true or better do it anyway?

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Like someone else said, some brewers don't do one unless they feel they need it. I do one every single time because it costs me nothing and eliminates a potentially huge headache.

wailingguitar said:

Time-wise, as long as you are careful not to oxidize, you'll be fine... should make a great beer...

As to the yeast? Either 34/70 or S23 will work great. I have used both strains commercially (the Weihenstephan strain from a different supplier, in liquid form) and they make great beers. The Weihenstephan strain I have used for Maibock, Bavarian Dunkel and Marzen... S23 I have used on Bo. Pilsner, Marzen, Doppelbock and Schwarzbier. I currently have an S23 fermented Marzen on tap that I believe to be the best beer I have ever made at home.

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What temperature do you typically ferment with the S23? As pointed out in this thread, and from what I gathered from somewhere else, it does look like S23 will ferment cleaner at temperatures higher than typical for lagers, more precisely in the low 60's. Is that your experience too?

Indyking said:

What temperature do you typically ferment with the S23? As pointed out in this thread, and from what I gathered from somewhere else, it does look like S23 will ferment cleaner at temperatures higher than typical for lagers, more precisely in the low 60's. Is that your experience too?

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I have used that yeast as low as 35F (yes, I had active, albeit slow, ferment at that temp) and as high as 62 or 63F temp spikes where the ambient temp was averaging 60F... either way it worked fine for me.

Indyking said:

What temperature do you typically ferment with the S23? As pointed out in this thread, and from what I gathered from somewhere else, it does look like S23 will ferment cleaner at temperatures higher than typical for lagers, more precisely in the low 60's. Is that your experience too?

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I did an experiment with S-23 vs some other yeasts and S-23 gave me an odd, perfumey aroma and flavor. At first I thought it improved the german pils I made, but by the end of the beers I like the 34/70 (and liquid yeasts) better.

I'm quite puzzled to see how homebrewer's experiences with S-23 vary. I wonder why some people never seem to have problems with it while others do. I guess it all comes down to your technique and how much control you have over it. There are reports of people that literally dumped their lagers because of off-flavors created by S-23 (supposedly), while others never had problems with it even at wide fermentation temp ranges.

I will go with the 34/70 though, because I think its safer for a pilsner and vienna, perhaps will try S23 with a more complex lager, which can afford or mask subtle off flavors.

+1 for W34/70, I made a fantastic vienna with two packs of that. A bit pricey for dry yeast but you still save the trouble of a starter.

I love S23 for california common, fermented at 62'F, but have never tried it for a true lager.

Tamarlane said:

+1 for W34/70, I made a fantastic vienna with two packs of that. A bit pricey for dry yeast but you still save the trouble of a starter.

I love S23 for california common, fermented at 62'F, but have never tried it for a true lager.

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Good! Regarding the price, considering the DME in the starter and cost of liquid yeast, 2 packs of dry yeast is often cheaper... Without mentioning the extra work to make the starter, equipment, etc! Many liquid yeasts have no dry equivalent though.

FWIW, my experiment with pics:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/lager-yeast-experiment-s-23-vs-wyeast-2124-a-183454/

passedpawn said:

FWIW, my experiment with pics:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/lager-yeast-experiment-s-23-vs-wyeast-2124-a-183454/

Conclusion: The Wyeast 2124 seemed to attenuate a bit better, but at the same time left some esters (maybe from the warm pitching temps) that made a better beer. The S-23 was a very pleasant beer except for the slightly dry, finish. I really like the convenience of using dry yeast, so I would consider using the S-23 again for a light beer like this. I have used this dry yeast for other lagers (i.e., Scharzbier) in which I could not taste any astringency. Also, the dry yeast is half the price of the liquid.

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Cool, thanks for sharing! I bet the esters came from warm pitching. I have done the same mistake before with liquid yeast in the past in one of my lagers. You mention you've got better beer with the liquid because of the esters? Well, German Pilsners typically are very clean, crisp and bitter, with no esters or diacetyl. Any trace of them is not acceptable for the style as far as competition goes, but it may not be what you like for your taste. So, it seems, actually, that S23 did a better job reproducing the style than WY2124!

Indyking said:

Cool, thanks for sharing! I bet the esters came from warm pitching. I have done the same mistake before with liquid yeast in the past in one of my lagers. You mention you've got better beer with the liquid because of the esters? Well, German Pilsners typically are very clean, crisp and bitter, with no esters or diacetyl. Any trace of them is not acceptable for the style as far as competition goes, but it may not be what you like for your taste. So, it seems, actually, that S23 did a better job reproducing the style than WY2124!

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Yea, I've switched to making bohemian pils. I like that better. I've worked a lot at making my pilsners (and lagers in general) better. I think I've got them down pretty good right now.

passedpawn said:

Yea, I've switched to making bohemian pils. I like that better. I've worked a lot at making my pilsners (and lagers in general) better. I think I've got them down pretty good right now.

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Well, Pilsners are hard to brew. Unlike most homebrewers, I favor lagers over ales. Have tried all different things with different lager styles and always feel like there is more room for improvement compared to my ales. Also, typically, most people can get a pretty good selection of ales from microbreweries locally, not so much for lagers, so I get to brew the great ones myself!

I get good results direct-pitching 2 packs of Wyeast 2308 into 4-gallon batches of 12ºP wort, almost as good as subsequent batches from the harvested cake. I far prefer that strain to W-34/70 and S-189, or WL830 for that matter.

944play said:

I get good results direct-pitching 2 packs of Wyeast 2308 into 4-gallon batches of 12ºP wort, almost as good as subsequent batches from the harvested cake. I far prefer that strain to W-34/70 and S-189, or WL830 for that matter.

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I knew you were going to show up with some props for 2308!

944play said:

I get good results direct-pitching 2 packs of Wyeast 2308 into 4-gallon batches of 12ºP wort, almost as good as subsequent batches from the harvested cake. I far prefer that strain to W-34/70 and S-189, or WL830 for that matter.

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Really? I thought liquid yeast provides 100 billion yeast cells per pack with > 90% viability (It is hard to get that much viability unless your pack was produced within the last 15 days before brewing).

A 12P lager according to BeerSmith 2 requires about 350 billion of cells for a 5 gallon batch, so 4 packs to be safe and avoid under-pitching.

Correcting it for 4 gallons, then 273 million cells are needed, so I guess you can get away with it using 2 packs but a bit risky...

osagedr said:

I knew you were going to show up with some props for 2308!

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Yeah, I'm a single issue politician apparently.

944play said:

Yeah, I'm a single issue politician apparently.

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I think it's called Staying On Message. I think the Gingritch campaign could use ya