I puree'd my grapes, now what?

So my mom dumped about 5 gallons of (edit: concord) grapes on my door this weekend to make wine with.

So I destemmed and washed them and then used my hand mixer to puree those babies.

Now I have what amounts to a sludge, do I need to add more water? Lots of water? Sugar?

I also had about a gallon of homemade elderberry juice and some blueberries I added to the mix.

Should I strain this through a paint strainer now? Leave the goop in there and ferment it once then filter? I've only made beer and some wine "kits" this is my first go at all homemade wine.

UPDATE 10-04: I am ready to bottle, should I simply rerack and put in some clarifier (I have a packet of that chitin stuff) and bottle after a day or two, or should I do more?

I remember on my last wine kit it actually had me aerate the wine during the end which seems counter to everything I've learned about beer. Should I aerate when I put in the clarifier? I'll also sulfite it as I bottle since I plan to try and age a few of the bottles for as long as I can stand it.

You smashed it all up? Skins and all?

YooperBrew said:

You smashed it all up? Skins and all?

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Did I screw up?

not really supposed to puree it. it will be difficult to clear that way... supposed to gently crush the grapes, to open the skins, ferment on the skins then press the skins to get the fermented juice out. may be difficult to do this if you have emulsified the skins and juice into one big slurry/smoothie.

either way, you dont typically add sugar or water.... what are your SG readings? what yeast are you using? wine is a completely diff animal from beer IMHO... it likes warm ferments, requires loads of patience, wine often needs multiple years of aging to be drinkable.

rawlus said:

not really supposed to puree it. it will be difficult to clear that way... supposed to gently crush the grapes, to open the skins, ferment on the skins then press the skins to get the fermented juice out. may be difficult to do this if you have emulsified the skins and juice into one big slurry/smoothie.

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Yeah. But..........................................

You can put the pulp in big mesh bags. Get an OG (by adding sugar) of 1.090-1.100. Take the OG first of your pulp to get a rough idea how much sugar you might need. My guess is about 2 pounds per gallon, because concords aren't particularly sweet. Bring the OG up by adding sugar, dissolved in water. Plan on about 6 pounds of grapes per gallon, and use water/sugar to make it up to one gallon. Add 1 campden tablet per gallon (dissolved) and let sit. After 12 hours, add 1 teaspoon of pectic enzyme per gallon. After another 12 hours, add the yeast.

In about 5 days, remove the pulp. You can squeeze big mesh bags to get out the juice. Then, rack and top up into a carboy of the "right" sized batch (you'll lose alot of volume with the pulp gone) and let it ferment the rest of the way.

rawlus said:

either way, you dont typically add sugar or water.... what are your SG readings? what yeast are you using? wine is a completely diff animal from beer IMHO... it likes warm ferments, requires loads of patience, wine often needs multiple years of aging to be drinkable.

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Sorry to interject here- but concord grapes always need sugar and water. They are acidic little buggers, not like wine grapes. They need some sugar added and then you dilute the must to reduce acidity. So, about 6 pounds per gallon. Crush them up, add sugar (1.5-2 pounds) and water to get a gallon total.

Wine grapes are a different ballgame altogether but we're not dealing with wine grapes. You can treat concord grapes as you would other fruit- like blackberries for example.

So paint strainer that fits in a 5 gal bucket, pure puree in there, and ferment in that for a few days, then squeeze the goodies out? (cliff notes version)

my mistake on the concord grapes, i am only familiar with wine grape processes.

Grimster said:

So paint strainer that fits in a 5 gal bucket, pure puree in there, and ferment in that for a few days, then squeeze the goodies out? (cliff notes version)

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Yep. If they stay on the skins for about 5 days, your wine will end up a blush/rose' color. If you remove the skins sooner, you'll get a whiter/pink wine.

I'd check the OG, and if it's 1.020-1.010 it's time to press. I press much like you're going to- squeezing the bejebus out of a mesh bag. Sanitize your hands and just do it!

So with a good 3 or 4 gallons of puree slushie (plus a gallon of elderberry juice) should I dilute this with water and sugar? it's right at 5.5 gallons of slush now and it's pretty thick I could only imagine my SG reading right now would be ridiculous with all the solids in there.

Edit: Oh and I'd like to end up with a deep rich red. I also have some oak chips I used to age and color some brandy with that I bet would be great for secondary on this.

Grimster said:

So with a good 3 or 4 gallons of puree slushie (plus a gallon of elderberry juice) should I dilute this with water and sugar? it's right at 5.5 gallons of slush now and it's pretty thick I could only imagine my SG reading right now would be ridiculous with all the solids in there.

Edit: Oh and I'd like to end up with a deep rich red. I also have some oak chips I used to age and color some brandy with that I bet would be great for secondary on this.

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To add water and sugar is a good idea- I doubt those grapes have enough sugar on their own. You'd need to add water and take an SG to know how much sugar to add.

I don't mean to disuade you from making what you want, but using concord grapes to make a dark red rich wine might not be easy. It's thin, acidic, and needs some sweetening usually. Oaking would be fine of course. If you've ever had Mogen David wine, that's a typical concord wine. It's good for what it is, but it won't ever taste like a merlot.

YooperBrew said:

To add water and sugar is a good idea- I doubt those grapes have enough sugar on their own. You'd need to add water and take an SG to know how much sugar to add.

I don't mean to disuade you from making what you want, but using concord grapes to make a dark red rich wine might not be easy. It's thin, acidic, and needs some sweetening usually. Oaking would be fine of course. If you've ever had Mogen David wine, that's a typical concord wine. It's good for what it is, but it won't ever taste like a merlot.

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Hmm maybe these aren't concords after all? Because the liquid in my bucket is dark dark red almost purple it's REALLY dark red. And overall they're a pretty tasty grape. My mom said they're concord so I just went with that.

Grimster said:

Hmm maybe these aren't concords after all? Because the liquid in my bucket is dark dark red almost purple it's REALLY dark red. And overall they're a pretty tasty grape. My mom said they're concord so I just went with that.

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Well, maybe! I've had some very dark wine musts from catawba grapes that turned out very light, though, so it's really hard to tell right now. The pulp will make it pretty dark.

I'd go ahead with what you're doing- the elderberries will provide much needed tannin so I think you're on the right course.

Ok sending my wife to Lowe's to get some paint strainers, I'll strain and squeeze tonight, then see what I've got when I'm done with that.

So here's the basic plan:

squeeze and strain out the liquid
add water and sugar to a roughly 1.100 reading
?? save some (or all?) of the pulp in a strainer bag to let it sit in the fermenter for the primary ferment
should I sulphite the juice and let it sit for 24 hours, or heat it (pasteurize) then cool and pitch? Or just pitch?
primary till it's 1.010ish then rack to secondary (adding my white oak chips) for a month or two, then rack again, then bottle after say 4 months?

Seem like an ok plan?

I'm a wine newb I've done one kit (which made a superb wine even if it is barely 4 months old haha) and I've done several gallons of apfelwien with I love DEARLY.

maybe these grapes are muscadines and not concords.

rawlus said:

maybe these grapes are muscadines and not concords.

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Nah these are some sort of grapes, they're actually hybrids I think, cause my dad planted 2 types of grapes close together and some times you get some white grapes in some of the bunches that you would think are unripe but they're quite sweet and ripe tasting. Is it possible for 2 types to hybridize like this? I know planting cayenne peppers too near your bell peppers can result in some really... interesting bell peppers.

okay.. so this is all going to be a bit experimental since we don't know exactly what we're working with...

it would be good if you could test acid and/or pH. some of these wild and non-vinefera strains are known for higher than typical acidity...

but outside of that, you can heat the water and sugar solution to dissolve and add that to get your 1.095-1.100 SG reading, i would add 1tsp of pectic enzyme to aid in breaking down the solids as well as in future clearing.. i would not heat the juice to pasteurize it. a simple dose of sulfite (k-meta) at 1/4tsp per 5gal rate should be sufficient. Use a wine yeast, EC-1118 is a strong fermenter, highly competitive, strong alcohol tolerance, wide temp range and low foaming. optimal ferment temp for this yeast is 60*-77* but it is capable of going into the low 80's.

you can oxygenate prior to pitching the yeast, but should refrain from O2 after that.
primary ferment down to between 1.000-1.010 and transfer to secondary with minimal headspace, leave gross lees behind. rack into secondary with minimal O2 exposure, ferment as low as you can go, usually below 1.000, sometimes as low as 0.993-0.995.
when you get two or three days in a row of same SG, rack again to clean carboy, add your oak and maintain minimal headspace, add wine or other alcohol (not juice) to increase volume if necessary to maintain minimal headspace. i would suggest tasting intervals at 1 week to assess oak character, leave in until desired character is reached, then either remove or rack again leaving oak behind. you cannot undo oak in a wine other than by blending with an unoaked wine so you don't want to overshoot your target.
age in carboy (with airlock) until clear and then bulk age or bottle, your choice.

there are some good basic recipes on concord grapes and other fruits at http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Agree with rawlus!

You can ferment on the skins during primary, and remove it when going to secondary. You'd get more color and flavor that way. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it finished as low as .990. It'll be very tart, but fixable.

I'm just mister 20 questions today. How do you remove the skins without ending up with aeration? I get the idea of putting them in a mesh bag but pulling it out is gonna result in splash would it not? Also you're supposed to squeeze the skins since they'll be full of yummy wine (or so a few things I read said) so how do you do that and not result in oxygenation?

for a small home batch, easiest way is to put the bag of skins into a large colander over a larger bowl or other container, and use sanitized hands to press out as much of the juice as you can. a mechanical press is superior, but not practical for many home winemakers. and a mechanical, you have to back off a bit as it is too efficient and can actually introduce green flavors and negative astringency if pressed too hard. hopefully, with the addition of pectic enzyme, you will see good extraction of juice during primary ferment, as alcohol increases that should help in juice and color extraction as well... what may appear now as jelly-like grape insides and skins should end up being more free run juice and skins, which will make separating them easier at least. when you pull the bag, a good deal of juice should be left behind, and the bag should be mostly wet skins... so you'll press these wet skins in the bag using the colander and other container, and then reintroduce whatever juice you get out of the skins, into the juice that was left behind when you pulled the bag out.

by pressing before fermentation is completely done, you should be minimizing O2 exposure well enough.. and once it gets back under airlock, should have some bubbling to go before it's done.

Ok so strain my stuff, then tie the bag off and put it back in the fermenter, add pectic enzyme and pitch yeast, then just remove bag and press it after the primary (for maximum red) or toss the bag before fermenting (for a much lighter colored wine)? Sounds like maybe I'm getting an idea now

i would not toss the bag before fermenting, most of a grape's flavor is in the skins, the jelly-like inside is mostly sugar and water.... just add your enzyme and ferment now, then press, rack and go with your oak.

rawlus said:

i would not toss the bag before fermenting, most of a grape's flavor is in the skins, the jelly-like inside is mostly sugar and water.... just add your enzyme and ferment now, then press, rack and go with your oak.

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Exactly. Put the pulp, skins, seeds/whatever, in the bags and tie off. Add water/sugar to get you to 1.090ish. Ferment 5 days or so, and take out the skins/pulp when you get to 1.020ish. Squeeze the bag, it's fine. Some splashing is fine at this point- you've used k-meta (right?) and you're still fermenting quite a bit. Don't worry about some splashing when you squeeze the bag. As a matter of fact, you will notice that your fruit bags will float during primary. Stir it a couple of times a day, pushing down the "cap" with your sanitized spoon. You don't want the floating fruit bag to dry out so don't be afraid to stir it up and push down the fruit.

YooperBrew said:

Exactly. Put the pulp, skins, seeds/whatever, in the bags and tie off. Add water/sugar to get you to 1.090ish. Ferment 5 days or so, and take out the skins/pulp when you get to 1.020ish. Squeeze the bag, it's fine. Some splashing is fine at this point- you've used k-meta (right?) and you're still fermenting quite a bit. Don't worry about some splashing when you squeeze the bag. As a matter of fact, you will notice that your fruit bags will float during primary. Stir it a couple of times a day, pushing down the "cap" with your sanitized spoon. You don't want the floating fruit bag to dry out so don't be afraid to stir it up and push down the fruit.

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I shall do exactly this then, pour into 5 gallon strainer (all sanitized) squeeze it as best I can, tie it off, let it soak. Add water and sugar to make a full 6 gallons and 1.100(ish) SG, meta it for 24 hours (24 right?) add pectic enzyme, and then pitch yeast. Stir daily for about a week, rack, wait for 1.000ish OG then re-rack with chips tasting say, once a week? less or more? for oak quality I seek, re-rack when oak quality is reached, let clear for months, bottle when clear.

you got it. it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a book or do some online reading. but that's the gist of it.

That's what I'm doing now But yeah the grapes were dumped in my lap Friday night so I kinda leaped before I looked (such as pureeing them up I thought hey if mashing them by foot is good, a hand mixer should ROCK right?). So here we are I'm hoping to create something drinkable at least.

let us know how it turns out!

Ok so here we go the "trub" floated to the top, so I just opened the spigot.:






It's almost a 50/50 mix of pulp and pretty watery "juice".

See how dark red this stuff is, actually almost purple are you saying if I ferment this without the skins I'll end up with a blush wine rather than a full on red? Or did my pureeing the grapes maybe put more color into my juice than is seen doing it the "right" way?

So is the recommendation from the gurus (hi Yooper) to just sugar it to a 1.100 or so SG and then sulfphite it, wait 24 and then pitch and wait? Should I maybe split this up into 2 5 or 6 gallon batches and cut with water and sugar to preferred SG? Maybe make add some basic store bought grape juice to take it to 2 batches? Or is this a fairly normal 6 gallon batch of wine and I'm just a total newb?

what's the SG now?
i would not increase the volume too much as you will be diluting flavor in doing so.
i would not personally use store juice to increase volume, some store juices have preservatives added which inhibit yeast activity, but more importantly, i don't think store juice (table grapes) brings much to the table as it were for wine. I would top off with inexpensive commercial wine in the aging stage if necessary to bring it to a small headspace though.

pureeing may have extracted more color than a typical crush. its an experiment for sure. heh.

rawlus said:

what's the SG now?
i would not increase the volume too much as you will be diluting flavor in doing so.
i would not personally use store juice to increase volume, some store juices have preservatives added which inhibit yeast activity, but more importantly, i don't think store juice (table grapes) brings much to the table as it were for wine. I would top off with inexpensive commercial wine in the aging stage if necessary to bring it to a small headspace though.

pureeing may have extracted more color than a typical crush. its an experiment for sure. heh.

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I'd go with about 6 pounds of grapes per gallon, and dilute with water to get to the gallon (with the dissolved sugar). Most concord-type grapes (if it's concord, or catawba, etc) are very acidic and can make an unpleasant "straight" wine. I don't know what else to suggest, except take a look at Jack Keller's recipes for wild grape varieties and get some ideas on how he suggests doing this. Generally, I just smash up the grapes and put them in mesh bags (simulating a crusher) and then ferment about 5 days before "pressing" with my hands. I do some acid adjustments, but you certainly don't need to, especially if the must tastes good.

Ok this was at least 40-50 pounds of grapes so ~8 gallons, what I'm going to do is let out about a half gallon of the juice, and several scoops of the goop and put that in my 3 gallon carboy and then top that off with apple juice and shoot for a 1.100 SG, then I'll top off the remainder with water and sugar to 1.110 and make a 3 gallon batch of "experimental" apple/grape/elderberry wine and a 6 gallon batch of more traditional red wine.

I'll report back in a few months with my results

I have pressed thousands of pounds of those grapes. Some years the acid is high, sometimes not. Other years we need to add sugar, sometimes not. Check your acid and brix and you will be fine. A blush wine this will not be. It will be dark and heavy. Chances are you will not like it unless you sweeten when you bottle. The addition of sugar drastically brings out the fruit. I prefer it blended with Niagra. It really makes the fruit explode. I have sweetened (after stabilizing) with "simple syrup" from a restaurant supply store. It has worked well, and no strange tastes developed. Table sugar works fine too.

dogboysdad said:

I have pressed thousands of pounds of those grapes. Some years the acid is high, sometimes not. Other years we need to add sugar, sometimes not. Check your acid and brix and you will be fine. A blush wine this will not be. It will be dark and heavy. Chances are you will not like it unless you sweeten when you bottle. The addition of sugar drastically brings out the fruit. I prefer it blended with Niagra. It really makes the fruit explode. I have sweetened (after stabilizing) with "simple syrup" from a restaurant supply store. It has worked well, and no strange tastes developed. Table sugar works fine too.

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Anytime I have a wine of questionable taste I find that just throwing a splash of Sprite into the glass makes a world of difference.

So I sulphited the stuff last night mixed it up real good and added sugar and water to take it to about 2 inches from the top of a bottling bucket (so right around 6.5 gallons) I'll get an SG today and adjust with more sugar if necessary and then pitch yeast right before bed.

Using Lavlin 1118 yeast should get a pretty vigorous fermentation I'd guess.

Grimster said:

Using Lavlin 1118 yeast should get a pretty vigorous fermentation I'd guess.

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Vigorous indeed, SG today is .996 and I'm no sommelier but I think it's fairly acidic. Not undrinkable, hell I'm polishing off the test tube I took for testing with out any real scrunchy faces being made.

Guess I'll rack to secondary in the next few days on top of this handful of white oak chips I used to age some brandy in last year and then how long would folks recommend till I re-rack to remove it from the oak? Days, weeks, months, years even?

So far looks like it'll make a fairly decent deep red wine. So my pureeing of the grapes maybe wasn't detrimental to my success.

how long were those chips in the brandy? chips will become neutral in about 6 weeks or less - meaning they will stop imparting any oak character... on oak, in an experimental batch i would taste at weekly intervals and rack when you have achieved the oak character you seek.

rawlus said:

how long were those chips in the brandy? chips will become neutral in about 6 weeks or less - meaning they will stop imparting any oak character... on oak, in an experimental batch i would taste at weekly intervals and rack when you have achieved the oak character you seek.

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Hmm I don't remember exactly but it was at least several weeks, they've been in the freezer in a zip loc baggy for at least a year now. I can get some fresh chips at the the LHSB I mean they're not exactly an expensive item to go cheap on or anything

Racked my wine to a secondary, added my peach juice (finally found it) and some oak chips. Took a test glass just now and hell, this is good damned wine. Little bit acidic in the bite but it's quite drinkable I'd say.

Gonna get a small glass again in a week and see if my oak chips impart any flavor, it was a pretty good sized bag of chips so hopefully I'll get some. If I don't oh well, such is life, better luck next time.

I am ready to bottle, should I simply rerack and put in some clarifier (I have a packet of that chitin stuff) and bottle after a day or two, or should I do more?

I remember on my last wine kit it actually had me aerate the wine during the end which seems counter to everything I've learned about beer. Should I aerate when I put in the clarifier? I'll also sulfite it as I bottle since I plan to try and age a few of the bottles for as long as I can stand it.