BIAB, grain to water ratios, and mash outs.

I brewed my first BIAB yesterday. Recipe instructions stated:

11lbs grain
mash @ 152 for 60 min
1lb/1.5qt (mash)
1lb/2qt (sparge)

I BIABed it at:

(5.5g final volume) + (1g boil off) + (1g grain absorbtion) = 7.5 mash volume

11lbs grain
mash @ 152 for 60 min
1lb/2.72qt

I ran my crushed grains through a blender for a 2 second pulse per cup, hit my strike temp dead on, mashed out at 170 for 10 minutes. Hit all my pre/post volumes, pre-boil OG 1.044, and my final OG was 1.053 (recipe was 1.052-1.056). Calculated Brewhouse effeciency was 70%

Heres the question. After researching grain/water ratios, apparently a thick mash yeilds a malty, less fermentable wort. A thin mash yields a low body, high fermentable wort. Given that most BIAB no-sparge brewers mash in the 1lb/2.5qt range, is there a noticiable difference in the beers? Any side-by-side comparisons?

Heres my fix...

BIAB mash at 1lb/1.5qt(4.125g) at 152 for 60min. Add the remaining 3.375 gallons, raise to 170, and mash out for 10 minutes. Pull the bag leaving 6.5 pre-boil?

Does this sound resonable? Has anyone done this and tested the results?

EDIT: I am aware of BIAB sparging in a second pot, but I'm sticking with the 1 pot method.

I, too, am a BIAB brewer but have not heard of this thin vs thick mash effect. I thought it only depended on mash temp? Sounds like its time for an experiment

I switched from traditional AG to BIAB (full volume, no sparge, no chill) about 10 batches ago. I've brewed the same recipes using both methods but never done a side-by-side comparison. My palate may not be as 'pofisticated as others but I notice no difference (other than the couple of hours BIAB has shaved off my brew day). YMMV

I haven't noticed any differences with BIAB and a thinner mash. I agree that it would be nice to do some side-by-side comparisons with other brewers to see if there's a noticeable difference between the various brewing methods.

enjoy

http://makinthemtherebeers.blogspot.com/2007/08/technical-tuesday-mash-thickness-pt2.html

http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/03/22/mashing-thick-or-thin/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/mash-grain-water-ratio-important-138407/#post1569009

+1 ^

I had a post written up, gave an explanation and then my page refreshed and the guy above me beat me too it!

Lol cheers

Something to chew on:

BN article

"1 - I can and have gone into lengthy discussions about L:G ratios. Mainly, people seem to be concerned about Beta Amalayse enzymes becoming denatured too quickly at such a high L:G ratio; and leaving you with an overly dextrinous wort. Then again, others say that a thin mash leads to increased fermentability, and therefore BIAB worts will be overly dry. In a way, they are both right. Both these things are a concern. BUT, in practise, they seem to balance themselves out; and worts well within the normal range are produced. Even at the L:G ratios involved with BIAB, still by far the biggest influence on wort fermentability is temperature. To be on the safe side I mash 0.5 to 1 degree C lower in temp than I normally would, and haven't had problems yet. "

thanks thuges. i saw that article a while back when i started looking at BIAB, but wasnt too worried about ratios at the time.

I have only done one BIAB and it is not kegged yet. Next time I am thinking mashing thicker, and then adding an infusion of boiling water to reach mashout temps. This will accomplish the thicker mash and the mashout w/ one effort.

wilserbrewer, thats pretty much what I had in mind except the second pot for heating the second addition of water.

since i want to stick with 1 pot, i could accomplish the same thing by pulling the bag out via a pully/rope, adding water and heating it to 175, and putting the bag back in.(175 because the grain temp will drop while out of the pot.

but then...if the brewingnetwork.com thread says it doesnt matter anyways, then whats the point? this definitely needs a side-by-side.

i would do it but im brewing my last batch today. im leaving for afghanistan in a month, so ill have to wait till next year.

Enjoy the brew day! Be safe over seas and may God speed you back safely. Thanks for your service.

I doubt the thickness will affect the wort that much. Too extreme on either end will mess with efficiency. I don't see how any enzymes could be denatured from the amount of water in the mash. My guess is that it would only make a difference if you were mashing above 155F for some reason.

But the way I interpret it is that beta amylase would drop off quicker in a thinner mash if you went over 150F resulting in a marginally less fermentable beer. That is just the optimal temp though. It doesn't immediately denature at 150F. It means that the affect of higher mash temps leaving unfermentable sugars will be more pronounced with thinner mashes.

New to this and been researching the BIAB method. Is all grain significantly cheaper than extract brewing?

Also, does anyone use an electric turkey fryer that has a drain valve adapted to it?

To answer your first question, it depends on which beer you are brewing. In most cases yes it is quite a bit cheaper to do all grain vs extract. I was averaging $25 for a 1.05x type gravity before, now I'm around $15 for that same gravity brew. This assumes you buy a 50-55lb sack of 2 row, pilsner, or pale ale as a base grain. You'd probably be in the $18-20 range for an all grain recipe with grains bought individually.

Extract prices have gone up since I last brewed one, so the difference may be greater now. But the greater advantage to me is the variety of grains I can now use. Also you can taylor your finished gravity to suit style based on how you conduct the mash (temps).

owentp said:

New to this and been researching the BIAB method. Is all grain significantly cheaper than extract brewing?

Also, does anyone use an electric turkey fryer that has a drain valve adapted to it?

Click to expand...

Tried with the "Cajun Injector" electric turkey fryer (7.5 gallon pot), I bought one to try out because after using my Amazon points and a Black Friday special I ended up getting it for $30.00 shipped.

The problem is that it is only a single 1850 watt 110V element which takes just short of "forever" to boil 5 gallons of liquid (and not a very rapid boil at that). All is not lost though, I sewed up a bag and use it for 2.5 gallon test batches (sans the external pot liner) in conjunction with my electric stove. Works awesome!

I believe you can contact Cajun Injector and simply order the electric part; use it as a "heat stick" in your own kettle on the stove top.

Mashing a 2.5 gallon batch:

I'm confused by this topic for BIAB. The way I figure things is this way.

I want about 1.70 gallons to bottle
I loose about 0.7 gallons to the boil
I loose about 0.25 gallons to the grain
I loose about 0.10 gallons to the trub
-------------------------------------
So I need 2.75 gallons to mash with.
I make minor adjustments w/grain weight the average is about 4.3 lbs

I did not see the pH being discusse yet in this thread. If you treat your water then thick vs thin might not be an issue. I am a beginning AG brewer and ruined three batches because I thought full volume BIAB was best way to go. I brewed at about 3qts/lbs. It was a very light beer so the grains did not pull the pH down as they normally would. This is normally not even considered for first brews but my water was very alkaline given my full volume mash and it ruined it by releasing tannins. I don't think the ratio is super critical until you step way out where I was at 3-4qts/lbs. especially on a close to all 2row recipe. If you brewing a bigger beer than all base malt and og1.040 - don't worry about it.

ph isn't affected that much. I full volume BIAB. Using EZ water and BM centennial blonde recipe here is how the PH changes:

treated water (RO and salts)
1.37 qts per lb, ph 5.56
3.43 qts per lb, ph 5.63

Untreated water:
1.37 pts per lb ph, 5.76
3.43 qts per lb ph, 6.06

Volume has a small affect on the mash that I feel can be corrected easily in ez water with salts and ro water.

As far as quality of the wort???? No complaints here.

CaptainL, I was actually directly referring to that blonde. If that worked for you, full volume, then I need help. I failed three in a row. Now I am waiting on one to finish but have assumed it was due to tannins in full volume, and this batch is not full volume to prove it. I may pm you directly as I am tired of killing good beer.

Oh when I re-read your post it seems maybe you are using ez water to estimate and prob using estimate water values. My water is not your water tho so either way it can work out differently. Is 6's not too high anyway?

Bigdongsr94,

I brew BIAB and live not too far from you... If you have questions or need any help with BIAB feel free to PM me.

I'm still confused by this thin mash/thick mash for BIAB. Since the idea is to do a full volumne batch why not just figure finish vol + boil off + grain & trub loss and go w/what ever you come up w/as total?

You are spot on C-Rider... It is no more complicated then that and you are FAR from confused.

Rifester, I may do that.

As far as volume goes that's exactly what I have done previously. Try to go full volume, pull grain see where I'm at. Add water at boil if I came up short. Check gravity and add DME if my gravity is low. But my beers didnt work so.....not sure where my issues are. Many people do the full volume method as stated tho.

We can talk some more and help you find your issues. I think we should start with figuring out your calculations so that you don't have to add water or DME. I am here to help!

bigdongsr94 said:

CaptainL, I was actually directly referring to that blonde. If that worked for you, full volume, then I need help. I failed three in a row. Now I am waiting on one to finish but have assumed it was due to tannins in full volume, and this batch is not full volume to prove it. I may pm you directly as I am tired of killing good beer.

Click to expand...

I just realized my "untreated" numbers are actual treated with salts just not mixed with reverse osmosis water. So real untreated for will be a lot worse. If you don't know your water profile, chances are your ph is HIGH. I don't have it right now but I think my water is around 8.0. You should definetely get a water report. If not, you could try a batch with Reverse osmosis and salts to see if that helps. Without water corrections you could easily be extracting tannins whether you are BIABing or standard mashing. F

bigdongsr94 said:

CaptainL, I was actually directly referring to that blonde. If that worked for you, full volume, then I need help. I failed three in a row. Now I am waiting on one to finish but have assumed it was due to tannins in full volume, and this batch is not full volume to prove it. I may pm you directly as I am tired of killing good beer.

Click to expand...

I just realized my "untreated" numbers are actual treated with salts just not mixed with reverse osmosis water. So real untreated for will be a lot worse. If you don't know your water profile, chances are your ph is HIGH. I don't have it right now but I think my water is around 8.0. You should definetely get a water report. If not, you could try a batch with Reverse osmosis and salts to see if that helps. Without water corrections you could easily be extracting tannins whether you are BIABing or standard mashing.

C-rider, thats exactly what I do. I take a sample when its warming up for the boil. Once it is cooled in the freezer if the SG is low, I can boil longer or let it ride. If high, I will top off with bottled water after the boil.