Smoked Beer Experiment

Smoked Beer:

I am in the process of building a smoked stout, which I will name Smokey The Stout for a local competition. My goal is to create a beautiful tasting stout with subtle smokiness. I already have a wonderful stout recipe that is a regular on my taps. However, it appears that the most popular beer to add smoke flavor is the Porter. I haven't seen much in the way of a smoked stout. Nonetheless, I have talked to several people that said they have tried such a beast. Well, I haven't and was at a loss as to designing the recipe, until now.

Because this is my first smoked beer, I'll need everyone's input; good, bad or indifferent. I want to know your attempts at smoke flavor no matter the style. What was your honest opinion of your smoked beer and what would you have done differently?

Here are my concerns: Every time I have tasted a homebrew smoked beer, the smoke was always overwhelming. I don't know how much smoked malt to add to the grist. But I found the advice of 3 oz per 5 gallons at my home brew shop in SoCal. Well, this might be good, but I want to get it right the first time. Therefore, I have devised an experiment.

My experiment: First, start off with a good stout recipe, which I have in hand. Next, in order to get the smokiness just right, I'm going to make a small batch using 6 ounces of smoked malt without hops and the same starting gravity as the stout. Finally, I'm going to blend the smoked malt into the finished stout until I get the blend to my liking.

This shouldn't be difficult and I think it's a good idea. But, I'm not the "pro," and neither should I be. I'm too new to the craft.:rockin:

A couple of thoughts.

A smoked stout with subtle smokiness will not do well in a competition. The smoked beers will be tasted in order of likely palate impact and your stout will go close to last. Smoke is a palate killer and anything remotely subtle will taste like it doesn't have any smoke of it goes last. That's one of the realities of that category.

3 oz per 5 gallons is a ridiculously small amount of hardwood smoked malt so I assume the homebrew shop is advising you to use peat smoked malt. I would not take that advice. Get the Weyermann smoked malt. In a stout, 20% of the grainbill would be pretty subtle. Any lower than that and you may as well not use any. I use 50% or more in a smoked porter, that is fairly strong but not out of line with commercial examples.

I doubt the blend will work well as you'll need so much of the smokey beer as to dilute the stout. You really need to replace a fair portion of the base malt with smoked malt.

Porter and stouts are closely related, so the general approach should be the same. My Jazz Club Smoked Porter used 18% Weyermann smoked malt (2 lbs/5 gallons), by far my favorite of the smoked malts. If you are going to use peat-smoked malt, you'd want to use A LOT less. The Briess Cherry-smoked malt doesn't taste nearly as good to me as the Weyermann - it tends to be more acrid than smokey.

Jazz Club is quite old now (I brewed it on July 4), and while the smokey aroma has faded, the taste is still perfectly balanced with the chocolaty character of the malts. Since Stouts tend to be dryer and roastier than most porters, reducing the amount of smoked malt down to 10-12% would probably be a good idea to start out with, but I wouldn't go lower than than unless you really just want the barest suggestion of smokiness in the beer.

I see what you mean with the subtle part. Is it your opinion to go big on the smoke since it's possible it will go last in a competition, which I get? However, I tasted the Alaskan Porter and it wasn't overwhelming. Your thoughts?

I am using beachwood malt and yes, it was advised 3 oz per 5 gal, and i'm going with 6gallons.

Regarding dilution, how about I estimate the pounds of malt, and take that amount out of the malt bill. Then blend the estimated smoked malt?

ArcaneXor said:

Porter and stouts are closely related, so the general approach should be the same. My Jazz Club Smoked Porter used 18% Weyermann smoked malt (2 lbs/5 gallons), by far my favorite of the smoked malts. If you are going to use peat-smoked malt, you'd want to use A LOT less. The Briess Cherry-smoked malt doesn't taste nearly as good to me as the Weyermann - it tends to be more acrid than smokey.

Jazz Club is quite old now (I brewed it on July 4), and while the smokey aroma has faded, the taste is still perfectly balanced with the chocolaty character of the malts. Since Stouts tend to be dryer and roastier than most porters, reducing the amount of smoked malt down to 10-12% would probably be a good idea to start out with, but I wouldn't go lower than than unless you really just want the barest suggestion of smokiness in the beer.

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Damn, that sounds good. Mail some to me now, LOL. Thanks for your advice.

I recently made and still have on tap a smoked ESB...grain bill was ~11lbs (5gal batch), with one lb of that being a cherrywood smoked malt. The smoke stands out pretty well in the lighter ESB, but would be somewhat subtle in a roasty stout.

dlester said:

Damn, that sounds good. Mail some to me now, LOL. Thanks for your advice.

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Can't do that (it's kegged), but I can give you the recipe. Probably needs some tweaking since this was a concentrated boil, but you'll get the general idea:

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 5.03 gal
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 34.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 21.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.50 lb Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM) Grain 57.78 %
2.00 lb Smoked Malt (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 17.78 %
1.00 lb Caramel Malt - 60L (Briess) (60.0 SRM) Grain 8.89 %
1.00 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 8.89 %
0.50 lb Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.44 %
0.25 lb Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (470.0 SRM)Grain 2.22 %
10.00 gm Magnum [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 17.9 IBU
12.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.00 %] (30 min)Hops 2.5 IBU
8.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.40 %] (5 min) Hops 0.8 IBU
0.50 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
2.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
2.00 gm Chalk (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
2.00 gm Salt (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
3.00 gm Baking Soda (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
3.00 gm Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs American Ale Yeast (Fermentis #US-05) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 11.25 lb
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Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 14.63 qt of water at 162.9 F 150.0 F

(Note: base is RO water, aims to roughly imitate a London water)

I think there's a huge decision you're going to have to make: do you want to brew a beer that will win a competition, or do you want to brew a beer that you will love drinking? Remilard is right about the placement of the beer in the flight - you will have a horrible time competing against all the other beers before you. For that reason, you'll probably have to do a 50% smoked beer. However, this is going to be one that for the next year you'll be forcing people to have a taste every time they come over to your house because not a lot of people will choose to have a whole pint of it.

I have a friend who has this problem with a 70% (!!!!) smoked porter he made. It's pretty awesome but even a beer geek like me won't drink more than a pint.

You know how it is, everybody has to go extreme or go home. To compete in a smoked category you're going to have to go extreme. I would imagine if you are entering the beer in the stout category less smoke would be desired.

I do a smoked porter with 1oz per gallon. You get the porter taste up front and then a little smoky flavor on the back end. You don't need to go 20% to get a smoke flavor...

kanzimonson said:

I think there's a huge decision you're going to have to make: do you want to brew a beer that will win a competition, or do you want to brew a beer that you will love drinking? Remilard is right about the placement of the beer in the flight - you will have a horrible time competing against all the other beers before you. For that reason, you'll probably have to do a 50% smoked beer. However, this is going to be one that for the next year you'll be forcing people to have a taste every time they come over to your house because not a lot of people will choose to have a whole pint of it.

I have a friend who has this problem with a 70% (!!!!) smoked porter he made. It's pretty awesome but even a beer geek like me won't drink more than a pint.

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OK, ultimately I want a beer that my friends and I can enjoy. I think that a competition is secondary to enjoying more than a pint.

Thanks ArcaneXor, I noticed you have 18% smoked malt and it appears you know water chemistry.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

You know how it is, everybody has to go extreme or go home. To compete in a smoked category you're going to have to go extreme. I would imagine if you are entering the beer in the stout category less smoke would be desired.

I do a smoked porter with 1oz per gallon. You get the porter taste up front and then a little smoky flavor on the back end. You don't need to go 20% to get a smoke flavor...

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So, your at one oz per gallon, which would be 6 ounces for my 6 gallons. I don't think that's extreme at all and it sounds like your happy with the results.

dlester said:

So, your at one oz per gallon, which would be 6 ounces for my 6 gallons. I don't think that's extreme at all and it sounds like your happy with the results.

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The smoke is definitely a flavor to the beer but not the prominent flavor like most smoked beers on the market/homebrewed.

It's easier to brew a batch that is not smoke enough and add more rauchmalt the next go round than suffer through choking down something that is too much smoke flavor.

So I decided to go with 1 OZ per gal. I'm going with less is better. I brewed it up a couple days ago and will check in again after fermentation.

dlester said:

So I decided to go with 1 OZ per gal. I'm going with less is better. I brewed it up a couple days ago and will check in again after fermentation.

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Bah! You're all amateurs in "smoked" beers. I currently have a keg conditioning that destroys all that anyone in this thread is calling "smoked".

I wanted a beer that would totally destroy any other beer had after it and still leave the drinker wanting more. I believe i accomplished this.

My recipe is fairly simple. 8lbs Maris Otter, 1lb each of peated malt and german rauchmalt, .25 carapils, and .5lb each of special B and wheat malt. Centennial, cascade, nugget, simcoe and a cascade dry hop and a touch of coriander in the boil. See, that wasn't smokey enough for this brew. At flameout i steeped 2oz of lapsang souchong black tea and 4 dashes of liquid smoke. Throughout the entire fermentation this stuff tasted like bongwater. I let it sit in secondary for a while to clear up and when it finished it was akin to licking the crust on a smoked pork hock for an hour. It tasted fantastic in a small snifter and with a steak. I had it with some paella and it wasn't so good. Definitely something to drink with meat or BBQ. I dried it out a bit too much though, IMO. I used 1lb of candi sugar for body and it took away some of the malt flavor from the Maris Otter. I'd leave that out if i brew it again. Fermented on Wyeast 1056.

Though i am drooling over the 70% smoked malt recipe idea though. Sounds like something i'd like. :rockin:

Well, aren't you full of yourself, LOL. I challenge you to mail me a bottle to see if it is all you say it is. I wouldn't mind trying a beer that "destroys all."

The challenge I see in smoked beer is that almost always they are overdone. I sat is two competitions where the judges all agreed. I saw a video of Jamil, which said the same.

I don't doubt that your beer rocks, but I want moderation. I want a beer you can taste maltiness, hops and smoke. Not a drink that tastes like I just stuck my toungue in a barbeque.

ArcaneXor said:

Can't do that (it's kegged), but I can give you the recipe. Probably needs some tweaking since this was a concentrated boil, but you'll get the general idea

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I can vouch for ArcaneXor's recipe. I've had his beer and its got a nice smokey character that's not overpowering.

I myself have a brown porter on tap right now that uses 1lb of the Weyerman smoked malt and its hard to pick that flavor out, it just adds a nice complexity to the roasty flavors.

If you are using Peat Smoked malt use WAY less than those amounts. I'd recommend using the Weyerman stuff first.

dlester said:

Well, aren't you full of yourself, LOL. I challenge you to mail me a bottle to see if it is all you say it is. I wouldn't mind trying a beer that "destroys all."

The challenge I see in smoked beer is that almost always they are overdone. I sat is two competitions where the judges all agreed. I saw a video of Jamil, which said the same.

I don't doubt that your beer rocks, but I want moderation. I want a beer you can taste maltiness, hops and smoke. Not a drink that tastes like I just stuck my toungue in a barbeque.

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Nah, never full of myself, just ball-bustin'. Honestly, aside from the few samples i've had early on, i've not had a single drop. I think it was too intense to be a daily drinker once i deemed it finished, hence why it's conditioning. My kegerator should be up and running in a month or so, once Xmas is past and i'll be able to get that keg tapped.

What i've often thought of doing was to make some lapsang souchong tea and use that with priming sugar at bottling to add a layer of depth in a smoked beer, but my "Souchong Smoke Bomb" was a learning experience for me more than anything.

fineexampl said:

Nah, never full of myself, just ball-bustin'. Honestly, aside from the few samples i've had early on, i've not had a single drop. I think it was too intense to be a daily drinker once i deemed it finished, hence why it's conditioning. My kegerator should be up and running in a month or so, once Xmas is past and i'll be able to get that keg tapped.

What i've often thought of doing was to make some lapsang souchong tea and use that with priming sugar at bottling to add a layer of depth in a smoked beer, but my "Souchong Smoke Bomb" was a learning experience for me more than anything.

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Thanks for blogging your experience with smoked beer. It certainly made this thread interesting. I hope yours works out too. Good Luck.

dlester said:

So, your at one oz per gallon, which would be 6 ounces for my 6 gallons. I don't think that's extreme at all and it sounds like your happy with the results.

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It really matters what type of smoked malt you use. Honestly, 1 oz per gallon may work if it is peat-smoked malt, but I have a hard time believing that using that little Weyerman smoked malt in a stout will even be noticeable.

I recently listened to an old Brewing Network podcast when they had Sly Fox brewery on as a guest. Sly Fox makes a rauch beer using essentially 100% weyerman smoked malt. Extreme, for sure, but the brewer mentioned that it was not overwhelming at all. The reviews at BeerADvocate agree - http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/10397/30457

For your stout, I would lean towards the 10-20% range if using Weyerman smoked malt, or 2-3% if using peat-smoked malt.

JLem said:

It really matters what type of smoked malt you use. Honestly, 1 oz per gallon may work if it is peat-smoked malt, but I have a hard time believing that using that little Weyerman smoked malt in a stout will even be noticeable.

I recently listened to an old Brewing Network podcast when they had Sly Fox brewery on as a guest. Sly Fox makes a rauch beer using essentially 100% weyerman smoked malt. Extreme, for sure, but the brewer mentioned that it was not overwhelming at all. The reviews at BeerADvocate agree - http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/10397/30457

For your stout, I would lean towards the 10-20% range if using Weyerman smoked malt, or 2-3% if using peat-smoked malt.

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He said Weyermann (beechwood smoked). 1oz per gallon will be completely undetectable. I'd say 30% minimum for my tastes. My next beer will be 100% beechwood. I've done 30% a couple of times, 50% once (with a mix of beechwood and cherry). I've done a smoked porter, and added a pound into a wee heavy.

OK, I've transfered my smoked stout to a keg and started the forced carbonation. The FG is 1.014. I tasted it and it is rock'n! As you know, I used 1 ounce per gallon and I think this is the ticket. It is really good. There is enough smoke to make it pronounced, but not so much that I can't drink more than one glass.

Does anyone want to see the recipe? If so I'll post it.

Cheers

hey everyone, I'm back to report on my smoked beer experiment:

My smoked beer finished out and is now kegged. Well, I can taste the smoke, and it is light. I taste the smoke in the body and it is very well balanced with the other flavors. It actually blends well and doesn't overtake the qualities of the other grains, and is more pronounced in the finish. I like it a lot and have drank more than one glass, which proves to me that it isn't too much for my taste. I can see that this is a lot lighter than some commercial brands I tried though. In fact, commercial brands show the smoke forward in the taste. I think that if anyone tries to build a smoked beer you have to decide one of two things; do you want it forward and pronounced (1-2 lbs), or lighter, balanced and more pronounced in the finish (6-8 ounces). Either way, I love it the way it is. Thanks everyone for your advice,

Cheers,
dlester

dlester said:

I think that if anyone tries to build a smoked beer you have to decide one of two things; do you want it forward and pronounced (1-2 lbs), or lighter, balanced and more pronounced in the finish (6-8 ounces). Either way, I love it the way it is. Thanks everyone for your advice,

Cheers,
dlester

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Well said.

As a follow up to the smoked beer I brewed. The smoked grain was noticeable at first, but faded away to a very slight smokiness. The problem I ran into was a slight medicinal harshness. Some in my club said that the smoked grain might be at fault. However, I have been plagued with contamination on so many beers that I don't think it was the grain.

In conclusion, the amount I used gave a slight smokiness that I liked. I realized though, I'm not experienced enough to say that this is the correct amount of smoky grains. In addition, I am not a big fan of smokey beers.

Cheers,
DL

I still stand by my recipe and advice here that 1oz/1gallon is a good amount for somebody looking for smoky character as a minor flavor component but not necessarily a smoke beer.

If you are getting some medicinal harshness, it definitely sounds like a contamination issue or chlorophenols if you are using untreated tap water.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

I still stand by my recipe and advice here that 1oz/1gallon is a good amount for somebody looking for smoky character as a minor flavor component but not necessarily a smoke beer.

If you are getting some medicinal harshness, it definitely sounds like a contamination issue or chlorophenols if you are using untreated tap water.

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I have to agree with everybody else and say that using Weyerman or Briess at 1 oz per gal (approx 5%) is not good advice, since it will be undetectable. I just made a LAGER using 20% Briess and it's barely detectable. So you must be referring to peat-smoked malt, otherwise this makes zero sense.

SpeedYellow said:

I have to agree with everybody else and say that using Weyerman or Briess at 1 oz per gal (approx 5%) is not good advice, since it will be undetectable. I just made a LAGER using 20% Briess and it's barely detectable. So you must be referring to peat-smoked malt, otherwise this makes zero sense.

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No, it is the Weyermann beech-smoked rauchmalt. I can't say why it's undetectable in your recipe but i assure you, having drank enough of my own beer, it is detectable.

It sounds like something is amiss with your lager because 20% of any malt should be easily tasted unless you have poured an incredible amount of hops and/or spices on top of it.