General advice for brewing high-gravity Belgian styles

Belgian beers are by far my favorite, and just about all I want to brew.

Let's hear your advice for making big belgian ales!

Right now I'm brewing batches #5 and #6, both in the primary. I'm using DME. Batch #5 is like an Imperial Stout, except that I'm using yeast recultured from a bottle of Westmalle Tripel and more Belgian-ish hops: Styrian Goldings, French Strisselspalt (because I couldn't get Saaz), and some leftover German Tradition for the bittering hops. I'm interested in cross-pollinating a strong Belgian with a stout.

Batch #6 basically follows the recipe for Westmalle Tripel from the book Clone Brews. I added a very little bit of Paradise Seed just for fun.

Enlighten me dudes!

oh, and I also added some Amarillo hops (flavor hops) to the tripel... Thought that might be good.

Hey this guy has real nice hair: :fro:

As with any high gravity beer, make a big starter. Also, you may want to use a new pack/vial of Belgian style yeast as opposed to a bottle culture. The Belgians are veeeeery protective of their yeast strains, and the yeast that is used to bottle condition is usually different then the actual fermenting yeast.

Does anyone know which Belgian commercial beers are bottled with the same yeast as they are fermented with?

for what it's worth, the aroma coming out of the airlocks does remind me of Westmalle... fresh and estery, with maybe a hint of grape.

RBlagojevich said:

Does anyone know which Belgian commercial beers are bottled with the same yeast as they are fermented with?

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The "bottling yeast" thing is more myth than reality. Chimay, for example, uses the exact same yeast for all their beers. Where different yeast is used, it's more often out of necessity than secrecy, as in using a highly attenuating strain to insure carbonation in tripels. I know Huyghe does this with Delirium Tremens. Still, it makes bottle harvesting sub-optimal as you're culturing a hodgepodge rather than a clean yeast strain.

Here's a handy guide on harvesting bottle yeasts.

jkarp said:

The "bottling yeast" thing is more myth than reality. Chimay, for example, uses the exact same yeast for all their beers. Where different yeast is used, it's more often out of necessity than secrecy, as in using a highly attenuating strain to insure carbonation in tripels. I know Huyghe does this with Delirium Tremens. Still, it makes bottle harvesting sub-optimal as you're culturing a hodgepodge rather than a clean yeast strain.

Here's a handy guide on harvesting bottle yeasts.

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One example, albeit a very good example does not make this a myth. Your next sentence explains why. The myth is actually that it is done to protect the strain. A lot of belgians are bulk aged for more than 6 months prior to bottling and to ensure carbing they need to add yeast at bottling. At that time they want to preserve the flavor of the beer exactly as is so they use a very neutral yeast that will simply consume the priming sugar and not introduce any esters like the original strain.

For us home cultivars the yeast in Belgian beer is either a: a bottling strain or b: old and tired (or dead) because the beers tend to be at least 6 months old. Either is not a good formula for success.

I started to culture some bottle yeasts and then just realized that it would be better for me to use the strains that WL and Wyeast have so carefully cultured.

If I really feel the need to culture bottle yeast I'll do it with some more local beers.

RBlagojevich said:

Belgian beers are by far my favorite, and just about all I want to brew.

Let's hear your advice for making big belgian ales!

Right now I'm brewing batches #5 and #6, both in the primary. I'm using DME. Batch #5 is like an Imperial Stout, except that I'm using yeast recultured from a bottle of Westmalle Tripel and more Belgian-ish hops: Styrian Goldings, French Strisselspalt (because I couldn't get Saaz), and some leftover German Tradition for the bittering hops. I'm interested in cross-pollinating a strong Belgian with a stout.

Batch #6 basically follows the recipe for Westmalle Tripel from the book Clone Brews. I added a very little bit of Paradise Seed just for fun.

Enlighten me dudes!

Click to expand...

BTW, I like what you've done so far. Aside from yeast which, like I said I just rely on WL to help me out with, I have found that mash temp and fermentation temp are the two most important factors in crafting that finished product and getting the FG down to a balanced, non-sweet level.

I usually ferment for 3-4 days at 68 degrees and then slowly raise the temp up to 78 degrees for 24-48 hours depending on the size of the beer. Then I reduce it back to 66-68 for the remainder of primary(2-3 more weeks.) I usually secondary at 60 for 3-4 weeks and then bottle.

dontman said:

One example, albeit a very good example does not make this a myth. Your next sentence explains why. The myth is actually that it is done to protect the strain. A lot of belgians are bulk aged for more than 6 months prior to bottling and to ensure carbing they need to add yeast at bottling. At that time they want to preserve the flavor of the beer exactly as is so they use a very neutral yeast that will simply consume the priming sugar and not introduce any esters like the original strain.

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See, the thing is, I've been to Belgium and the Netherlands. I've toured many breweries in both countries and have spoke with the brewmasters. Yeast costs money and even the Trappists are in this for the money. Out of the dozen plus I visited, Huyghe was the only one who did multiple yeasts. FWIW, I also didn't see a lot of bulk aging either, unless the brewery did lambics. Again, it's a matter of money. Brew a beer, get it sold, and brew more. Beer sitting around in bright tanks isn't making money. The most common way to bottle condition I saw in Belgium? Kräusening, not yeast additions.

I've got a fridge full of mason jars of yeasts I cultured from the brews I carried back and have had a blast this year brewing all kinds of tasty Belgian beers with them.

N00B alert: What exactly do you mean by "High Gravity" - meaning is "High" considered 1.050 or say 1.015

How would Hoegaarden fair on this scale? That's probably my favorite Belgian beer, others would include Leffe and Affligem.

I would love to make a Hoegaarden clone, but I hear its a bit tough and I only have 1 batch under my belt which is not even in bottle yet, so technically not even a batch hehehe..

earthad1 said:

N00B alert: What exactly do you mean by "High Gravity" - meaning is "High" considered 1.050 or say 1.015
under my belt which is not even in bottle yet, so technically not even a batch hehehe..

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Well, the partial mash Belgian Tripel I did this summer with Chimay yeast had an OG of 1.087 and finished at 1.018 or 9% ABV. I've got a 1.076 OG Belgian IPA in the fermenter now with the same yeast.

earthad1 said:

How would Hoegaarden fair on this scale? That's probably my favorite Belgian beer, others would include Leffe and Affligem.

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I assume you mean Hoegaarden's witbier? It's around 5% ABV. Look around and see if you can find a Grand Cru (9% ABV) - it's Hoegaarden's best, IMO.

earthad1 said:

I would love to make a Hoegaarden clone, but I hear its a bit tough and I only have 1 batch under my belt which is not even in bottle yet, so technically not even a batch hehehe..

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A witbier is quite easy to make, and fast! You can go from ingredients to stomach in a week if you keg, under three if you bottle.

dontman said:

I usually ferment for 3-4 days at 68 degrees and then slowly raise the temp up to 78 degrees for 24-48 hours depending on the size of the beer. Then I reduce it back to 66-68 for the remainder of primary(2-3 more weeks.) I usually secondary at 60 for 3-4 weeks and then bottle.

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My high gravity approach is quite similar though shorter as I pitch HUGE starters so there's no doubt of reaching my target FG. Two days fermenting sub 70 deg to manage the fusels and then I let it run wild until FG is reached. I prefer bottle aging over a secondary so the bottles get tucked away at room temp for 6-8 weeks before sampling commences.

jkarp said:

See, the thing is, I've been to Belgium and the Netherlands. I've toured many breweries in both countries and have spoke with the brewmasters. Yeast costs money and even the Trappists are in this for the money. Out of the dozen plus I visited, Huyghe was the only one who did multiple yeasts. FWIW, I also didn't see a lot of bulk aging either, unless the brewery did lambics. Again, it's a matter of money. Brew a beer, get it sold, and brew more. Beer sitting around in bright tanks isn't making money. The most common way to bottle condition I saw in Belgium? Kräusening, not yeast additions.

I've got a fridge full of mason jars of yeasts I cultured from the brews I carried back and have had a blast this year brewing all kinds of tasty Belgian beers with them.

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I was going to modify my post to say that even though I sounded like I was disagreeing with your post I wasn't.

I believe that you can culture decent yeast from Belgians but I also believe that if you go to a local American beer shop and pick up a bottle of Duvel or Chimay then it will be at least 6 months in bottle and the yeast will be very tired or even dead.

I envy your trip and would definitely love to have all of that yeast in my fridge. As it is I am limited to all of the WL varieties of Belgian yeasts. On the other hand, I have six sixpacks of Belgian beer in my cellar including Chimay, Duvel, and Orsendonk and I can see anice little layer of sediment at the bottom.

dontman said:

I believe that you can culture decent yeast from Belgians but I also believe that if you go to a local American beer shop and pick up a bottle of Duvel or Chimay then it will be at least 6 months in bottle and the yeast will be very tired or even dead.

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100% true! That's why I suffered the pain of schlepping bottles of even "common" Belgians back.

jkarp said:

Well, the partial mash Belgian Tripel I did this summer with Chimay yeast had an OG of 1.087 and finished at 1.018 or 9% ABV. I've got a 1.076 OG Belgian IPA in the fermenter now with the same yeast.



I assume you mean Hoegaarden's witbier? It's around 5% ABV. Look around and see if you can find a Grand Cru (9% ABV) - it's Hoegaarden's best, IMO.



A witbier is quite easy to make, and fast! You can go from ingredients to stomach in a week if you keg, under three if you bottle.

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Yea, sorry, I meant Hoegaarden's witbier. That fast huh? Awesome! Thanks so much for the info.

RBlagojevich said:

...Batch #5 is like an Imperial Stout, except that I'm using yeast recultured from a bottle of Westmalle Tripel and more Belgian-ish hops: Styrian Goldings, French Strisselspalt (because I couldn't get Saaz), and some leftover German Tradition for the bittering hops. I'm interested in cross-pollinating a strong Belgian with a stout.

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That sounds great. Have you ever come across Hercule by the Ellezelloise brewery? It's a Belgian stout that's somewhere around 9%, I think. Well worth trying if you can get it, though there's also a clone recipe for it in "Beer Captured".

I haven't tried the Hercule, but it sounds pretty tasty. Here's hoping the "belgian imperial stout" will turn out ok! It's just something I wanted to try, never having encountered a beer like that in a beer shop.

update on these batches:
They've been sitting quietly in the primary carboys for a little over a month now, and I figured I should add another dose of yeast before I bottle, just in case the yeasts in there had gotten tired. Sure enough, I immediately got a small amount of bubbling in the airlocks! I guess these batches still haven't quite reached final gravity.

Fusorfodder said:

The Belgians are veeeeery protective of their yeast strains, and the yeast that is used to bottle condition is usually different then the actual fermenting yeast.

Click to expand...

not exactly true, most of the Trappist breweries don't use a separate bottling strain (Westmalle, Chimay, Orval (actually slighty more complicated since they use several strains at different times), Rochefort (at least 10 uses same primary yeast),and Westvleteren). Duvel also uses the same strain.

Most of, if not all of these yeasts have been harvested and are for sale from either white labs or wyeast (probably both) for a breakdown go here

To the OP, I highly, HIGHLY suggest picking up "Brew Like a Monk"if you are interested in Belgian beers. Everyhting you need to know is in there.

yeah, I have been wanting that book...

Anyway I have to disagree with those who say that it's not a good idea to reculture belgian yeasts. Although there may be some breweries that bottle with a different yeast, I have had stellar results using Saison Dupont and Westmalle.

Culturing from the bottle is more fun than buying yeast -- and you get to drink the beer!

I must admit that my Orval clone didn't come out tasting anything like Orval -- Orval seems like the exception, a brewery that does bottle with a different (wild) strain.

RBlagojevich said:

Anyway I have to disagree with those who say that it's not a good idea to reculture belgian yeasts. Although there may be some breweries that bottle with a different yeast, I have had stellar results using Saison Dupont and Westmalle.

Culturing from the bottle is more fun than buying yeast -- and you get to drink the beer!

I must admit that my Orval clone didn't come out tasting anything like Orval -- Orval seems like the exception, a brewery that does bottle with a different (wild) strain.

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Yes, I agree - it is ok to harvest from the Belgian bottles (as I mentioned earlier). Orval is a little different since one strain of yeast is pitched later than the other, then more of the original strain is added prior to bottling (it is all outled in BLaM) so it complicates things a little. Orval is still one beer I have not seen a true clone made of

The same things are of primary importance with belgian beers as any other, namely pitching rate and fermentation temperature control. However people who get away with RDWHAHB type attitudes toward their process with results acceptable to them often run into a lot of problems with Belgians because the fermentation is so finicky.

Specific to Belgians, get it dry. Almost every home or commercial brewed belgian style I have had is less attenuated than authentic examples. Everything you can do to increase the attenuation (mash low, buy highly fermentable extract, use sugar, add the sugar during fermentation, raise the fermentation temperature under control during the fermentation, pitch plenty of yeast), do it.

other fun belgian stouts are troubador by brouwerij de musketiers, buffalo by browerij de vandenbossche and allagash black. each has its own personality, i recommend giving them all a try if you can.

i've found this style challenging, it's been tough for me to get the roastiness of the dark grains and the fruity esters to marry well.

for me the biggest keys to belgians (which i've otherwise had success with) are:
-pitching enough healthy yeast.
-temperature control (low at first to keep esters and fusels under control and then higher to ensure attenuation)
-time. these beers take on such amazing characteristics as they age.

edit: remilard said it

1. Big starters: I have not found that necessary. My batches are 15 gallons and a couple of tubes of WL liquid yeast have been sufficient. Within 24 hours they are blowing off hugely.

2. My strong ales and tripels dry out to about 1.010. I think this is because the fermenter temp is gradually ramped up to mid-to-high 70s AND because the fermenter is shaken a couple of times a day to get whatever sugars and nutrients and yeast as much chance as possible to hook up.

3. Time: give a belgian time to mellow. It is amazing how good it starts to become after 6 weeks. So far, the more time you give it the better it gets.

dontman said:

For us home cultivars the yeast in Belgian beer is either a: a bottling strain or b: old and tired (or dead) because the beers tend to be at least 6 months old. Either is not a good formula for success.

I started to culture some bottle yeasts and then just realized that it would be better for me to use the strains that WL and Wyeast have so carefully cultured.

If I really feel the need to culture bottle yeast I'll do it with some more local beers.

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Slightly Off Topic, but I could use the advice: I used a Wyeast Trappist High Gravity Ale for a Medium bodied Belgian Ale. I didn't have the time or inclination to wash the yeast from the Primary on bottling day. (No Secondary was used.)

It's only been in bottles for two weeks. Would reculturing this yeast from a 500ml bottle for my next batch be advisable, or should I cough up the $6.00 for a new Wyeast and plan ahead to capture the yeast for future batches?

Thanks in advance...