Converting an AG recipe to PM?

Good afternoon to all. I am a greenhorn to brewing but have become addicted in only 3 months of brewing.

I have a question (ok, four) about converting an AG recipe to a PM.

I found on this forum a recipe for Bee Cave Brewery's Bavarian Hefeweizen. I am not skilled enough (or have the equipment) for an AG brew yet. However, I found on this forum that I can convert 1 lb of grain to .75 lb LME or .6 lb DME.

Here is the recipe:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan
Yeast Starter: Yes
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.009
IBU: 10-13
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 3-4 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 10 days at 68 degrees
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): None

3rd Place winner of the 2007 Alamo Cerveza Fest

Bavarian Hefeweizen 5.5 Gallon

7# German Wheat (4.2 lb DME or 5.25 LME)
4# German Pils (2.4 lb DME or 3 lb LME)
.5# Rice Hulls (if needed to prevent stuck mash)

Mash for 90 minutes at 153 degrees.

.75 Hallertau @ 45
.25 Hallertau @ 15

Wyeast Weihenstephan 3068 with starter.

Ferment 10 days at 68 degrees then crash cool & keg.

O.G. 1.052
F.G. 1.009

5.6% abv

I have already converted the grains to LME/DME in the parentheses.

My quandary is this:
1. Since I cannot find a German Pils DME or LME could I use that as my PM grains?
2. Should I use some German Wheat grain as well or fully convert that over to Wheat LME/DME?
3. Is there an alternative LME/DME for German Pils that I could use that will not cause too much of a change in the final beer? I have seen other recipes call for Golden Light Extract.
4. Are the rice hulls necessary for a PM? IE, does it offer flavor, mouthfeel, etc to the final product?

Thanks for the help!

Happy Brewing!

2) wheat extract is only 60% wheat at most and varies brand to brand so the conversion isn't quite so simple.
3) pils or extra light extract would be best, golden light is 2-row.
4) rice hulls aren;t necessary for a PM assumming that if you do mash any wheat, it'll be in a bag.

how much grain are you capable of (or feel comfortable) mashing?

So I just want to point out that a converted MLT is about 75-100$ (you can prolly find a cooler on sale this time of year depending on location) with about 30min of work and getting a huge aluminum pot (like 10G+) is not too expensive. The burner is a lot for a good one, but they are so worth it.

Not trying to prevent you from trying but just pointing out that the total equipment differences is fairly minimal if you already have a large pot. If you don't have a large pot, you will want one anyway.

Oh, the other thing is there are tons of PM recipes for a heff, but the only true way to get a great heff is to learn how to decoction mash and do an all grain. None of the heffs that I have had (even with the yeast you use which is an excellent choice) taste nearly as good with any other mash profile. Also you don't want any flavor hops with a heff, you just want bitter. If I was to do a PM heff, I would use meladonin malt and crystal malt for the specialty grain and some munch malt as the base. Add a few cans of wheat malt (which isn't really 100% wheat as mentioned above).

That should get you something close to a heff, but if you are looking to clone a good German one you can't unless you do an all grain. Rice hulls are used only to prevent a stuck sparge resulting from the huge amount of wheat used. They are not needed if doing a decoction mash and both an acid and protein rest. They are needed if doing a single infusion mash. I hope this helps!

I am capable of mashing up to 5 lb of grains. I could probably do a bit more if needed. I have a 8 gallon brew pot.

browillard said:

I am capable of mashing up to 5 lb of grains. I could probably do a bit more if needed. I have a 8 gallon brew pot.

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I'd just go full AG then. an 8gal brew pot is big enough to do an 11lb BIAB

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/biab-brewing-pics-233289/

if you don't feel you're ready (although AG vs PM is not really any diff), for ease of buying things, I'd go with 3lbs wheat DME, 4lbs wheat malt, and 2 lbs pils malt (assuming 60% wheat extract).

But the wheat malt will most likely contain wheat malt, pils malt, two row, and a mess of other stuff... you really want to kick up the Meladonin to get that dry, bread, flavor and a pound of crystal for head retention. I would use Munich malt to get the nut, bread and dry toast flavor up. I find that pils just doesn't add very much, which is find for a lot of styles, but for this heff, you are not going to get 100% wheat in the can anyway. I would think that you would really have to play with it. I would leave out the wheat all together in the bag and see if you need to add any next time or if the wheat flavor from the can was fine.

See this is actually the problem that I find and found when I used extract, I don't know if the wheat malt is 60 or 80% wheat. Now I know that when I make a heff it's 6# of pale wheat and 3# munich, 1oz halertaur to get about 15IBUs.

i disagree. crystal should be nowhere near a hefe, and being a wheat, head retention isn't an issue. a traditional hefe is about the yeast flavors and a soft maltiness, so its kinda irrelevant how much wheat flavor the extract adds. its sounds like you're describing a pale dunkelweizen.

You would only need the wheat extract. You can get wheat extract that is 60/40 wheat to barley so that's close enough to this recipe. You should check the ratio with the manufacturer to make sure before you use it though. I've never seen steeping grains with an extract kit since no extra color or flavor are required for hefe (unless doing a dunkel). I would just use 100% extract or all grain. PM would be taking a simple recipe and making it complicated. If you use extract, be sure to do late addition to maintain lighter color.

I'd just go full AG then. an 8gal brew pot is big enough to do an 11lb BIAB

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/biab-brewing-pics-233289/

if you don't feel you're ready (although AG vs PM is not really any diff), for ease of buying things, I'd go with 3lbs wheat DME, 4lbs wheat malt, and 2 lbs pils malt (assuming 60% wheat extract).

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I have seen the BIAB used on a smaller scale (2 gallons) and was actually thinking of scaling down the recipe. However, all my friends and I love hefes so I wanted to get the most beer I could at one time. I think I may try my hand at the 5.5 gallons with a BIAB set up.

I appreciate all the feedback. I love this forum. The community is extremely supportive and informative. I couldn't have started brewing so quickly without this site!

Thanks, everyone!

i disagree. crystal should be nowhere near a hefe, and being a wheat, head retention isn't an issue. a traditional hefe is about the yeast flavors and a soft maltiness, so its kinda irrelevant how much wheat flavor the extract adds. its sounds like you're describing a pale dunkelweizen.

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The reason for the crystal is due to the single infusion mash profile. You don't get a great head retention (at least from what I have done) by mashing in at 152. Maybe I was doing something wrong. I also add it for a slightly sweet but not overly sweet flavor in small doses, I keep it at 10% of the mash or less. It also enhances the rest of the beer which as you said should have a soft velvet of malt with a dry fininish. A little goes a long way, but without doing a decoction and step mash, I would highly recommend at least some crystal. Take it or leave it, but I think that the slightly sweetness of crystal brings out the malt of Munich very well. Also I don't understand about the comment about the wheat, a heff is a wheat beer with strong phenols and esters which give a banana and clove flavor, or for the bravarian strain, which I use, a presence of clove and banana with a bit more malt flavor and a strong wheat presence. You will taste wheat in a good heff, and you should.

I also can not stress enough about how the fact that you have 60/40 wheat to barley, you have no idea what those grains were malted to. It could be 60 light wheat with 40% pils, 2row, 6row, Vienna, whatever is cheapest or a mix between any of them. With a heff because it's such a light beer, all of the malt flavor really comes out, I would definitely add base malts to get the profile where you want it. Again, this takes quite a lot of trial and error and you would have to decide based on how the beer comes out how to alter it while keeping the malt manufacturer the same. Muntons is not the same as say... anyone else. This is where the power of all grain comes from, you know exactly what grain went it and you can generally trace back elements of the beer back to a particular grain addition.

I did this as my first AG/BIAB this past Friday. I am super excited about this beer. I was spot on hitting the OG and everything is going smoothly.

Found out that Weihenstephan yeast put of a strong sulfur smell during fermentation. I'll have to remember that if I plan to ferment in the house.

I plan to keep this in the primary for a minimum 2 weeks then bottle and condition for 4 more. I'll repost with tasting notes.

Thanks everyone for your input!

UPDATE:

I brewed this beer on Oct 21st. It's still in the primary bc my FG is still not where I want it. I missed my target temp on brew day (phone call from a friend with a new baby born while I was brewing) so I think it may take a while to reach FG. It's still bubbling albeit slowly. Once FG plateaus (seems to be dropping at a rate of .002 every few days), I'll bottle.

I bottled the hefe yesterday and sampled a little. It looks and tastes great. A little sweeter than I hoped but that may be due to the added priming sugar (priming calculator suggested 8.5 oz of sugar) and the higher FG (1.014).

Just tried the hefe. Man, this thing is incredible. The head is thick and luxurious. There is a slight sulfur taste on the finish. I am hopeful it will diminish with time. Even so, it's a great beer! Thanks to everyone for the input!