Counterflow Chiller Tutorial

Yeah sure why not, but I'd probably plumb some quick disconnects in just so I didn't have to grab a wrench to connect/disconnect.

Lookin good by the way.

Using some compression fittings and a Tee I had on hand, I plumbed in an output thermometer. You could easily do this with a cheap Target digital probe thermo with a 1/4" compression fitting and a stack of Orings as a ferrule.

Hi Bobby,
Lurker here. I love the tutorials. 2 questions.

Can you post a parts list for the thermometer attachment for those of us (especially me) who are not so handy? I am also thinking of trying to build quick-connect parts into everything I build but can't find much information online about using them. Anything you add on that would be great.

Also, I can find a pretty cheap deal on 60' of type L 1/2" OD tubing. Will that work ok as well?

NVM. I sorted all this out.

I'm working on one right now that uses all brass fittings, with no soldering. It was expensive but I bought everything at HD on my company account so I didn't have to pay for it. I'll be done in a little while and post some pics.

Well, here it is!!! I need to get some better straps to hold it together though, but otherwise it went pretty smoothly.

Heres the parts list:
4: Hose barb adapter 5/8 Barb x 3/4 MIP A-495
2: 3/4 cast female pipe tee A-858
2: Ander-lign Compression X MIP union. 3/8 Comp. x 3/4 MIP w/insert
you also need a 3/8 drill bit to ream out the center of this piece, otherwise the tubing will not go through.

25' 3/8 coper tubing
25' 5/8 rubber hose

I can appreciate the simplicity of the no-solder system for sure. The tradeoff is a slight bit more cost. Looks good.

Adding an output thermometer is as easy as using a 3/8" compression Tee. One end goes on the output tube and the center tap is the new output. A short piece of 3/8" copper on here makes a new place to clamp a hose on. The other end of the Tee is where you'd take your thermo probe and use a short piece of 3/16" ID tubing to build up the probe's diameter to make a seal. I'm referring to the instant read digitals that you can get at Target, etc.

I don't really need a thermometer yet, but yes it would be easy to install. I used it on Sunday, and man did it work well. The wort went in at about 205ish and came out at about 68.

I made my own CFC today using the design in the original post. I started with a 60ft el-cheapo hose and 50 ft of copper. I only used a 30 ft piece of copper because I realized that more would not only be unnecessary and maybe tougher to clean, but a huge pain to force 50ft of copper into a hose. My results? 2.5 gallons of boiling water cooled to 68 F in 8 minutes. WOW. My tap water flows at 67 and we were able to cut the flow waaay back and get 68* "wort" (water in this case) coming out. I'm going to put a perforated tube on the output of this for a venturi aerator, and once I start doing 5 gallon boils I'll be cooled, aerated, and transfered 15 minutes after flameout. Here is the complete and accurate price breakdown for anyone interested:

60' vinyl garden hose......9.96
(4) hose clamps.............3.80
(2) copper tee...............1.50
flux and solder...............8.97
(6) 2" x 1/2" copper........3.93
(2) 1/2" to 1/4" reducer...2.16
50' copper tube............59.90
TOTAL........................90.22

A 25' peice of copper would have saved money (~$25) and I wish I would have just done that but I was worried about the fact that I'm a)probably going to be in an apartment for a while and might be using sink faucet with less flow and b)I'm moving to florida which probably has hotter tap water. If I had known this was going to work so well I would have just gone with 25'. Oh well, I have 20' of leftover copper for whatever I can find a use for it.

I may have spent a little extra for the insurance but I'm a pretty happy camper. It worked out well, and I got to make it the way I wanted it. I even have ten feet of hose for the water in and water out line, so it can be hooked up directly to the faucet and drained to wherever is convenient without additional hose.

I'm ready to move up to a cfc (esp. since brewing a lot this summer -sheesh!) and to make it cost effective want to use my NB immersion chiller. Any thoughts as to why this wouldn't work? It's 3/8 OD.

Thanks for your comments!!! and the DIY, bobby



cb

The only caution I have is that soft copper starts getting stiffer and brittle (like all metals) the more it is flexed. You'll have to uncoil it to get it inside the hose, then recoil it. It should go OK, but be careful.

What if you were to heat up the copper first in some boiling water and then using gloves, carefully uncoil it. Would that help to prevent damage to the tubing from uncoiling/recoiling?

I think the process of annealing takes a lot more heat than that and it's a good thing when you think of what we do with the coil on a regular basis. It shouldn't be bad uncoiling and recoiling just once but anything after that would probably start cracking the copper.

Oh well, guess I'll just have to be extra careful. I love excuses to buy new tools. Time to get me a torch and learn how to solder joints. I've seen it done a few times but I really should learn how to do it myself.

What is the approximate time to gravity drain a given amount of wort through the chiller? Would a 25' chiller be able to gravity drain a keggle (say 11 gallons) in sufficient time to not have to worry about taking too long to cool? I have a few projects lined up (keggle, CFC, 10 gal batches) as soon as we move into the new house.

webbie

it takes me about 45 minutes for 10 gallons but your mileage may vary.

It absolutely depends on how high your kettle is. Higher means faster flow.

Good point Bobby, I guess if the ID is limiting the amount of liquid that can travel through the chiller that increaseing pressure (static head) will increase flow. Water towers are tall for a reason.

Webbie

I guess my only question is I have done the math and this will cost 60 dollars minimum to build.

You can go on eBay and get a plate chiller for 59 dollars................

for me I only do projects like this if it's going to save me money.

It all depends on where you get your copper from... I bought my copper tubing in bulk, and then sold 3 CFC's here on the classifieds.

Yeah but the soft copper is going to cost 30 dollars for 25' then the high temp hose is another 30-35 dollars.

Then add the silver solder and fittings and this is not really worth the time and effort to build.

There's a catch to plate chiller though. They can potentially get fouled if hops and trub aren't filtered out. You can add a hopstopper but that's $70 right there. CFC's are much more tolerant of that kind of thing.

Also, while it's debatable how much surface area is enough, the $50 10 plate has a total hot/cold surface area of 200 square inches. The 3/8" OD x 25' copper tube offers 353sqin. In other words, you'd need the $64 15-plate version to come close and you'd still need garden hose and hose barb fittings. Of course, with the plate chiller, you have no DIY work to do.

Bobby_M said:

There's a catch to plate chiller though. They can potentially get fouled if hops and trub aren't filtered out. You can add a hopstopper but that's $70 right there. CFC's are much more tolerant of that kind of thing.

Also, while it's debatable how much surface area is enough, the $50 10 plate has a total hot/cold surface area of 200 square inches. The 3/8" OD x 25' copper tube offers 353sqin. In other words, you'd need the $64 15-plate version to come close and you'd still need garden hose and hose barb fittings. Of course, with the plate chiller, you have no DIY work to do.

Click to expand...

I ordered the 15 plate and paid 59 dollars. By using a stainless braid in your Boil kettle or even a copper scrubby you would not get any trub in your chiller.

I have actually done something similar to the byo article and positioned my tube towards the side of the kettle so if you whirlpool you'll be fine.

I encountered a strange shift in chilling efficiency with this CFC design about 6 months ago and it frustrated the heck out of me. For a while, I was able to chill wort to one degree F higher than the coolant water temp. All of a sudden, that number went to 8-10F so for the most part, the chiller was FAILING. I finally figured it out.

Before I built my brewstand, I was putting the chiller on the floor and pumping the wort though. At the output, a tube had to go up and over the fermenter. This caused the entire coil to fill solid with wort.

The failure started after I built the brewstand where I'd put the CFC up on top of the HLT. I was still pumping but the wort outlet now saw a 3' drop into the fermenter. When I slowed the wort flow down to get more chilling, the outflow siphon would cause the coil to partially empty so I was losing contact area.

The moral of the story is to make sure both your coolant outflow and wort outflow has to go higher than the chiller itself, even if only a couple inches so that the tubes stay full. I was able to get the output wort just about the same temp as the coolant.

...or get a plate chiller.

Just scored a 50' roll of 3/8'' fridge tubing for $35... That plus the 75' garden hose I got for free and a few bucks in fittings = CFC build this weekend!!!!

Nice grab on the copper! Ebay?

Bobby_M said:

I encountered a strange shift in chilling efficiency with this CFC design about 6 months ago and it frustrated the heck out of me. For a while, I was able to chill wort to one degree F higher than the coolant water temp. All of a sudden, that number went to 8-10F so for the most part, the chiller was FAILING. I finally figured it out.

Before I built my brewstand, I was putting the chiller on the floor and pumping the wort though. At the output, a tube had to go up and over the fermenter. This caused the entire coil to fill solid with wort.

The failure started after I built the brewstand where I'd put the CFC up on top of the HLT. I was still pumping but the wort outlet now saw a 3' drop into the fermenter. When I slowed the wort flow down to get more chilling, the outflow siphon would cause the coil to partially empty so I was losing contact area.

The moral of the story is to make sure both your coolant outflow and wort outflow has to go higher than the chiller itself, even if only a couple inches so that the tubes stay full. I was able to get the output wort just about the same temp as the coolant.

...or get a plate chiller.

Click to expand...

Maybe put a ball valve on the output of the Chiller so you don't need to fool around with the tubing.

Boerderij Kabouter said:

Maybe put a ball valve on the output of the Chiller so you don't need to fool around with the tubing.

Click to expand...

I like the idea but I also don't want to pressurize the coolant chamber with city pressure because it's clamped on to smooth copper pipe. I'll blow them off. What I think would work though is restricting the output somehow to provide a limited backpressure. I'm thinking maybe a 4" piece of silicone tubing, plugged on the end with a few slits cut in it. Water won't gush out under water weight and it will open the slits more under city pressure.

I think the ball valve on the wort output is a good idea though.

Boerderij Kabouter said:

Maybe put a ball valve on the output of the Chiller so you don't need to fool around with the tubing.

Click to expand...

Bobby_M said:

I like the idea but I also don't want to pressurize the coolant chamber with city pressure because it's clamped on to smooth copper pipe. I'll blow them off. What I think would work though is restricting the output somehow to provide a limited backpressure. I'm thinking maybe a 4" piece of silicone tubing, plugged on the end with a few slits cut in it. Water won't gush out under water weight and it will open the slits more under city pressure.

I think the ball valve on the wort output is a good idea though.

Click to expand...

Why not put the ball valve on the "coolant in" side of the chiller? That way, you'd be pressurizing the supply hose and not the chiller. The only issue I see might be "spraying" out the valve at low flow rates, but placing the coolant in at the bottom of the coil stack should eliminate any spraying once the coil fills.

I need to build one of these soon so I can switch to 10 gallon batches...

NoClueBrewMaster said:

Nice grab on the copper! Ebay?

Click to expand...

Johnstone Supply (HVAC supply house)... Couldn't believe it... Figured I better grab and go while the deal was hot....

OK- one small problem I came up with - counter flow chillers are great, but they will only get the wort to within 20 degrees or maybe a little more of the water used to chill. In other words, if using 65 degree water, you're going to get the wort down to about 80 to 85 degrees (not good enough for pitching). In Georgia, the water's going to be in the 70's, and that's going to get you close to 90! Has anyone thoughts on this? I have built a post-chiller, which sends the outflow from my CFWC right into a 15' coil of tubing immersed in ice water. 1st time out I barely had to turn the water flow in my CF chiller, and could get wort to exact temp, right into the carboy for aeration and pitching!:rockin::rockin::rockin:

mrsunshades said:

OK- one small problem I came up with - counter flow chillers are great, but they will only get the wort to within 20 degrees or maybe a little more of the water used to chill.

Click to expand...

how do you figure this? CFC chillers are more efficient than most Immersion style chillers...

mrsunshades said:

OK- one small problem I came up with - counter flow chillers are great, but they will only get the wort to within 20 degrees or maybe a little more of the water used to chill. In other words, if using 65 degree water, you're going to get the wort down to about 80 to 85 degrees (not good enough for pitching). In Georgia, the water's going to be in the 70's, and that's going to get you close to 90! Has anyone thoughts on this? I have built a post-chiller, which sends the outflow from my CFWC right into a 15' coil of tubing immersed in ice water. 1st time out I barely had to turn the water flow in my CF chiller, and could get wort to exact temp, right into the carboy for aeration and pitching!:rockin::rockin::rockin:

Click to expand...

I used my sub. pond pump, a cooler full of ice water, recirculated it through the CFC and was dumping wort into the carboy at 70* - 75*

Easy to do when the CFC is full of 33* water... And you don't 'waste' any to boot...

mrsunshades said:

OK- one small problem I came up with - counter flow chillers are great, but they will only get the wort to within 20 degrees or maybe a little more of the water used to chill. In other words, if using 65 degree water, you're going to get the wort down to about 80 to 85 degrees (not good enough for pitching).

Click to expand...

The principle of the CFC is to increase the surface area of the wort to the cooling water. It's far more effective than an Immersion chiller and you have no hot or cold spots. Still waiting for a response from the above poster...

I just confirmed again that my 25' CFC as mentioned in this thread's post #1 is capable of getting the output wort to within 1-2F over the coolant input temp. In order to do this, I run the coolant at about half open on the ball valve and the march pump's valve also half open. If I run both full open, the differential goes up to 8F which works fine if the tap is 62F.

Make sure you're counterflowing.

OK - well, I've tried changing the flow of both the cooling water and the wort, and still can't get it to much less than 20 deg less than the tap. Then I read in a online catalog this: "The Therminator will chill 10 gallons of boiling wort to pitching temperature within 5 minutes when using 58°F cooling water at 5 gpm. " thus lending credence to my theory. But I hear what you're saying about getting your wort to within 2 deg of tap - that's great; I think it might be that my CFC is only 16' or so (You said your's is 25'). And yes, I am COUNTER-flowing the water. That was smart of you to ask that, but I checked to make sure! With my post chiller, I get the wort to the exact temp I want, and hardly have to crack the valve on the cooling water, and I only have to use a a small amount of ice (it'll only fit 4-5 handfulls). I really like the idea of the recirculating ice water in the immersion chillers, etc that have been posted, but I've already got my CFC and so I just built a little more onto my existing system (always fun to McGuiver some more homebrewin' stuff!). By the way, what's the optimum wort temp for pitching the yeast? Also, how close in temps to the yeast and wort need to be? I pulled to yeast out and set in on the counter to get to room temp (about 68), but my wort ended up about 75.

The length of your CFC does not effect the efficiency of copper to transmit heat. The length will definitely help cool things faster. If you can't get to within 20 degrees of your cooling water, something else is wrong.

In post #143, I outline what I think might a problem you're having. I too lost cooling efficiency and I couldn't figure out why.



When I make sure the outlets, both wort and coolant, are physically higher than the CFC coils, the cooling efficiency goes way up.

I have two theories on why. First on the wort flow side, if the outlet is a straight gravity run out into the fermenter and you're trying to throttle the flow, wort may not occupy the entire interior of the coil. Maybe not.

I'm more confident in the effect of the coolant output though. When you attach an output garden hose and its outlet is lower than the chiller, it will pull a hard siphon and deflate the coolant jacket around the coil. My solution was to clamp the output hose to a garbage can so that it is held up a few feet off the ground.

Thank you Bobby_M we built 2 of these tonight. They are sweet. Cant wait to use it. Read up on how do the gravity, going to try next boil. Parts prices for other than what Dboss and I have, was 90 bucks for the hose and copper and a couple of t's. Its got red octogon style hose, screw hose clamps, and our 1/2-1/4 adapters went inside our t's so they look pretty much the same but no piece between the t and the reducer. Id take some pics but my 400 dollar camera is in shop, and my cell phone sucks. Im not joking, will take pics when I get my camera back.

Thanks a ton for this guide, it helped a lot to me and another fellow brewer. We put together two CFC's tonight, and it was relatively fun and painless! We went in together and bought a 50 ft. rubber hose and 50 ft. of 3/8" copper tubing, so for a 25' CFC it was just $50 each! We spent about 2 hours fabricating both chillers, and 3 hours drinking homebrew and shooting the shiite...I'd say HUGE SUCCESS!!! Again, thanks...and here's some CFC pr0n:

Not too purty, but the joints are water tight:


Soldering up the final fitting:


Bucket works great for wrapping these up:


Two very nice chillers!


Thanks again! Cheers!

Nice build! FYI, I have bought 100 feet of high temp hose from Kmart for about 30 bucks... Great deal for people that are considering a club build session... Funny part is their 50 foot hose is about 27 dollars...

Also, I've found it much easier to solder the ends on after I've fed the copper through the hose (using soapy water) and then coiling. Granted, I build my CFC's by myself so I didnt have the help to feed it around a bucket...