Kentucky Common Attempt

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I followed one of your recipes and posts with the lid on etc. It just tastes like a week old pile of grass to me for some reason. Maybe its just my personal taste, I've had it in the bottle since early august and its gotten a little better, but its still take a sip and dump it. I've even tried keeping a few bottles at 34 degrees for a day or two. I do like the base beer taste sans the grassyness.

I did a little poking around, not sure if this helps you at all... This is straight from the BJCP study guide for diagnosing beer problems.

Grassy

This is the flavor and aroma of freshly cut grass or green leaves. Responsible compounds include the aldehydes hexanal and heptanal, which are produced by the oxidation of alcohols in the finished beer or the deterioration of improperly stored malt or hops. Some English and American hop varieties produce grassy notes if used in large quantities, but this flavor should not be a significant part of the profile.

Acetaldehyde

This compound has the taste and aroma of fresh-cut green apples, and has also been compared to grass, green leaves and latex paint. It is normally reduced to ethanol by yeast during the secondary fermentation, but oxidation of the finished beer may reverse this process, converting ethanol to acetaldehyde. Elevated levels are generally present in green beer or if the beer is prematurely removed from the yeast. It can also be a product of bacterial spoilage by Zymomonas or Acetobacter. Background levels of acetaldehyde can be tasted in Budweiser due to the use of beechwood chips to drop the yeast before it can be reduced to ethanol.

What I find interesting is the "can also be a product of bacterial spoilage by Zymomonas or Acetobacter". I wonder if some of those may have been working on your mash and this lead to the spoiling of the finished beer?
 
Could be, like I said, I followed the instructions, umm it just tastes like the way it smells when you stir it up before draining into the kettle. I'm fairly experienced, I brew on racking days always so its prob not equipment or user failure. Also, in Colorado I would expect we have less and somewhat different bugs floating around. I always do about a gallon of sparge sugar into a pitcher and add it to the top to clean it out etc. It was my first, and so far only, attempt at souring a beer which is a style I like. I'll keep it until next summer to see if it becomes fit for human consumption.

As for the bjcp thing, its not like freshly cut grass, its more like grass thats ready to start a fire if you've got a big enough pile. Probably a lot of the same bacteria at work in both..
 
Could be, like I said, I followed the instructions, umm it just tastes like the way it smells when you stir it up before draining into the kettle. I'm fairly experienced, I brew on racking days always so its prob not equipment or user failure. Also, in Colorado I would expect we have less and somewhat different bugs floating around. I always do about a gallon of sparge sugar into a pitcher and add it to the top to clean it out etc. It was my first, and so far only, attempt at souring a beer which is a style I like. I'll keep it until next summer to see if it becomes fit for human consumption.

As for the bjcp thing, its not like freshly cut grass, its more like grass thats ready to start a fire if you've got a big enough pile. Probably a lot of the same bacteria at work in both..

Maybe they were some bad grains or something. My mash smells pretty bad, but at pre-boil it smells sweet and sour.
 
I will be mashing in a Kentucky Common this evening with the intent of doing the boil about 36 hours from now. I am going with 6lb 2 row, 2 lb flaked corn, 4 oz 60L crystal, 4 oz UK Chocolate. Thanks for the info on your page ODaniel!
 
i almost mashed this tonight... but ill need the mash tun tommrow. maybe ill mash in sunday afternoon and boil after work monday....
 
I will be mashing in a Kentucky Common this evening with the intent of doing the boil about 36 hours from now. I am going with 6lb 2 row, 2 lb flaked corn, 4 oz 60L crystal, 4 oz UK Chocolate. Thanks for the info on your page ODaniel!

Cool. I just did that last weekend except with 120L Crystal, and 6-row instead of 2-row.

Post up how they turn out.
 
I mashed in!
5 lb 6row
2lb corn flaked
1 oz chocolate
4 oz crystal 20 (thought I had 40.....:( )

will sparge and boil tomorrow after work!
 
Awesome. I prefer the same amount of chocolate malt as crystal. Helps add and balance the slight chocolate, nutty flavors with the caramel flavors. I also prefer darker crystal. I'm sure it will still turn out great though. Let me know how it is.

Don't fear when you smell the mash tomorrow, it's going to smell bad.
 
Awesome. I prefer the same amount of chocolate malt as crystal. Helps add and balance the slight chocolate, nutty flavors with the caramel flavors. I also prefer darker crystal. I'm sure it will still turn out great though. Let me know how it is.

Don't fear when you smell the mash tomorrow, it's going to smell bad.

yeah, i was gonna use 40... but didnt have any, and i did a 3 day mash once :)
 
Haha I bet that smelled good. I I've tried 60 and 80, I think I like 120 the best. The batch I have in the fermenter now has 120.
 
Haha I bet that smelled good. I I've tried 60 and 80, I think I like 120 the best. The batch I have in the fermenter now has 120.

yeah, i almost threw up when i opened the cooler...... took about9 months to mellow enough to be a drinkable berlier.....
 
Mine was only slightly sour smelling after 36 hours but I didn't inoculate it or open the fermenter until the end - no really nasty smells when I did. I lost about a quart or 2 of first runnings because my cheap mash tun wasn't as water-tight as I thought it was. Thankfully I had the presence of mind to put the mash tun inside another vessel in case it dripped! In the end I came out with 4.5 gallons of 1.045 wort after the boil. I have it fermenting at 65F now.

One of the guys in my club was interested in the brew and is going to try to match the sour with acid malt so we can do a comparison vs the long mash. I hope in the end this comes out nice - the total tab at the LHBS including using flaked corn instead of grits was $21 so it would be a great cheap session beer as well as a unique style to showcase.
 
One of the guys in my club was interested in the brew and is going to try to match the sour with acid malt so we can do a comparison vs the long mash. I hope in the end this comes out nice - the total tab at the LHBS including using flaked corn instead of grits was $21 so it would be a great cheap session beer as well as a unique style to showcase.

Funny, I thought about this too... except I noticed how expensive it was! im used to useing .50$ an lb 2 row... and the 6 row wasnt something I had bulk of :)
 
Mine was only slightly sour smelling after 36 hours but I didn't inoculate it or open the fermenter until the end - no really nasty smells when I did. I lost about a quart or 2 of first runnings because my cheap mash tun wasn't as water-tight as I thought it was. Thankfully I had the presence of mind to put the mash tun inside another vessel in case it dripped! In the end I came out with 4.5 gallons of 1.045 wort after the boil. I have it fermenting at 65F now.

One of the guys in my club was interested in the brew and is going to try to match the sour with acid malt so we can do a comparison vs the long mash. I hope in the end this comes out nice - the total tab at the LHBS including using flaked corn instead of grits was $21 so it would be a great cheap session beer as well as a unique style to showcase.

I'd be interested as to how that turns out. The books call for "2% lactobaccillus in the yeast", but I have no idea how to do that. I know White Labs sells the bacteria, but I don't know how to get 2%. A sour mash is cheaper anyway.

I though my LHBS was a little pricey, but everything for me for my past KY Common (recipe #1) cost $16. I calculated it on BeerSmith, if you bought everything in bulk for the 1908 recipe, it would be about $6.50 for a 5 gallon batch :ban:
 
A couple of silly questions....

1. Is this the same (or similar) process which is used to create bourbons/ TN whiskey? I've got a boss who loves bourbon and would love to get one of these in his hand if they are similar

2. Can I use my regular fermenters and kegs or do i need to use a dedicated "sour" set?

Thanks
J
 
Phished... its beer, so no its nothing like bourbon :)

and yes you can use all your regular stuff. the souring happens in the mashtun, and you will boil it afterward, so it will kill off the lacto growth!

when I did my Berliner (many day mash :D) I bleached the mashtun after, but im paranoid... I dont think i needed to....
 
Yes bourbons do use sour mashes, and this does have some of the flavors associated with bourbon (caramel in particular), but I think that's about as close as it gets to bourbon. I've been wanting to do a mock bourbon barrel with this beer. I feel like it would work very well. And as clap said, your normal equipment will be just fine. Everything is killed off in the boil.
 
So, I am going to brew this over the weekend. I will bottle the first half after 2 weeks in the primary. The second half I will transfer to secondary and age for a month on 1oz oak cubes that are soaked in bourbon (sanitizes and adds flavor).

If I use 6-row instead of 2-row is there anything I should keep in mind (longer boil, etc.)? I have never used it before so I am not familiar with what I should do differently with it.
 
also, will i need a yeast starter for this? my instinct is to say no, because gravity is so low (guessing a vial of wlp will suffice), but i wanted to be sure.
 
haha - it is 70 degrees and sunny in san diego right now. it is nice to never have weather constrain when/what you can brew.
 
So, I am going to brew this over the weekend. I will bottle the first half after 2 weeks in the primary. The second half I will transfer to secondary and age for a month on 1oz oak cubes that are soaked in bourbon (sanitizes and adds flavor).

If I use 6-row instead of 2-row is there anything I should keep in mind (longer boil, etc.)? I have never used it before so I am not familiar with what I should do differently with it.

Cool. I've been wanting to bourbon barrel one, I may do that with half of this next batch. Let me know how yours turns out. I don't boil any longer with the 6-row. Here's a tidbit:

Because American six-row barley malt is too high in protein to make stable beers, corn was first used to dilute the protein. Cost-cutting was a bonus - a bonus that soon got out of hand. The use of 20% corn, however, is a delightful flavor addition.
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html

also, will i need a yeast starter for this? my instinct is to say no, because gravity is so low (guessing a vial of wlp will suffice), but i wanted to be sure.

With liquid yeast, I would recommend a starter even with the low gravity. I've had bad experiences not using starters, even with beers around 1.050. It can't hurt, it can only benefit. Of course dry yeast would only need to be re-hydrated shortly before.
 
ODaniel, what's the best recipe for this that you have done?

I would say #1. It has more flavor due to a little more specialty grains. The 1908 recipe is completely to style. Still great, but a little lighter in body and flavor. Depends what you want. I have the #1 in my fermenter right now, except with Safale US05 instead of Cali Ale.

Hmmm, wonder what would be the best category to enter this under for a comp? Specialty beer?

I'm going to enter it in Specialty some time just for the hell of it to see what they say. I doubt it will do well since it's just a nice easy drinking session beer.

My sourness was VERY subtle.

Yea mine are pretty subtle. Noticeable, but subtle. You can always mash longer if you want more sourness, but IMO that makes it less of a session beer, for me anyways.
 
Yeah mine are pretty subtle. Noticeable, but subtle. You can always mash longer if you want more sourness, but IMO that makes it less of a session beer, for me anyways.

I don't know that I'd change very much. Need to get a swap going when I get it conditioned.
 
So I just bought the ingredients for this and I now have a massive concern. Upon describing what I was hoping to brew to one of the guys at Home Brew Mart (at Ballast Point for those of you not from San Diego) he had many concerns. First was his thoughts that I would risk contamination of my mash tun and anything I subsequently came into contact with after sparging, etc. before the boil. Even after using bleach and/or pouring in boiling water into the mash tun he thought I might not get it all, or at least I could possibly transfer it to something else. His suggestion was to finish the mash and sparge like a normal beer and then tape up the brew kettle once it was filled and wrap it up with something to insulate it and then let it sit. That way you can just start the boil in a day or so and nothing would be contaminated and the boiling takes care of any concerns with the kettle.

I was hoping to start this tonight. Hoping for some feedback on this.
 
Well, I don't know that I would worry about it as much. You could definitely do what he recommended, but even if some of the bacteria survive on your mash tun, everything you put through that thing in the future is still going to get boiled before it goes in the primary right? So if you contaminate future brews, you'll kill off any living organisms before you ferment anyway. Now if you are reusing that thing as a bottling bucket or something, then I'd be a little concerned...
 
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