Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

I actually use the vacuum tops a lot for wine so I will try them out. Point of using the refractometer is to pull small samples thou.

True, but when I really care about the numbers I always use a hydrometer. I usually pull a sample from my beer taps and degas with the wine tool or the foodsaver if it is out already. I like the fact that the beer is good, in a pint, and a sample being degassed to have my "finishing numbers." Then I don't overthink anything, because the beer is 100% done even if I didn't hit my numbers. If I were to sample with a hydrometer before I was drinking it and off, I would fool with it more than necessary. I usually just "reference" it with the refractometer while enjoying my first pint though, and that is good enough for me. I check at first, then come back a few hours later and look more accurately at the refractometer reading. There is always a difference in that time frame though by a few marks.

Thing is when lagering and ending up at 2.* vol co2, i need better readings to know when to crank down the spunding valve and start decreasing temperature, and the benefit of the refractometer is a small sample pulled.

Flananuts - Do you find that the dip tube contains an accurate sample of the beer fermenting in the rest of the keg volume? Or, do you pull enough to get beer from the bulk fermentation?

You know you make a good point. I may not be pulling enough sample to get an accurate read in the refrac.

I would think all the beer in the keg is the same. It all has working yeast making the same alcohol. I may be wrong so if anyone knows absolutely I would love to hear different.

Wortmonger - You're probably right.

When you guys are drawing off samples, do you just use the keg's natural pressure, or do you remove the spunding valve and add CO2 pressure while drawing-off to maintain consistent ferment pressure?

I agree, the SG has to be the same no matter where you sample from.

I use the pressure in the keg.

I would think that the racking cane in my setup would contain higher gravity wort if I was only pulling a small sample vs enough for the hydro sample since its under pressure.

Also, since the dip tube is at the bottom, how do you avoid drawing off a bunch of yeast and trub when you sample? I just took an ounce or so from a beer that I started pressure fermenting on Wed night, and it was pretty much all trub.

I don't worry much about trub/sediment in my samples. Yep, I use the natural pressure in the keg. The pressure you use to get your sample is easily replaced by further fermentation. I am always a little bit over-volumes by a point or two so I can vent it off later if it isn't lost during transfers or doesn't end up going into solution. Remember, the pressure you are reading is head pressure. That doesn't always mean volumes in the beer. Once things are finished and no more pressure is being created, only then will the head pressure and beer equalize to even amounts.

I am sure they are very near the same towards the end of fermentation, but... At the very onset of fermentation the pressure reads low/no due to absorption into the beer (hence some of our worrying if we have started or stuck), then you read higher than wanted (unless you have preset your SV and know exactly the pressure you want released which is never the case for me it seems) and have to adjust the SV a little bit during the most active period. This is why towards the end I go high again and don't "set" my carbonation until I am crashed. The lower temperatures allow faster absorption and it is just easier for me to go a few points higher before then.

Lagers have plenty of time to equalize and get more accurate volume measurements at these lower temps, and since they will remain cold from that point on I usually try for "wanted end volumes" of CO2 by adjusting every couple of days. Ales, I wait until I transfer to my serving vessel and adjust final volume there (usually a quite higher temperature than cold crashing so the beer gives up the excess a little easier). If I were bottling from a keg, I want it .2-.3 higher volumes to account for pressure loss when it equalizes the head space in its new home.

To me, it's all about temperature and when it is easier to do what I need done. Since starting this thread I have done it many different ways, but.... Now, I try to vent anything over 5-7 psi until I have the majority of fermentation finished. Then, I ramp up the SV and go for carbonation. Last, I crash cool, or lager depending, and either set the volumes in the lager or wait until I warm up for ales. Works for me!

For those of you who have used a spunding valve to carbonate beer...

I'm in the process of doing this now. The pressure has been building to my desired pressure (based on the temperature and desired carbonation level).

Is the beer carbonated as soon as I reach my desired pressure, or do I need to leave it at that pressure for a while to allow the beer to equalize?

Thanks for the help.

I think it's equalized. The beer is not carbonating ala force carbing whereby the beer is absorbing CO2 from head pressure/surface area alone. It's absorbing CO2 from all around, inside and out, since the gas producers are yeast.

In one breath you can say that pressurized fermentation takes longer cause it reduces fermentation vigor and extends ferm duration (unless you ramp up the temp to compensate). But in another breath, you can say that it takes shorter time for finished beer cause you end up with carbonated and equalized beer even before your yeast has all dropped out during the crash.

I can see in this light why many a brewpub do as we are doing (pressure fermenting) and many breweries might not. For breweries, carbing in a brite tank with a sintered stone sure takes a short time (6-8 hrs ish or overnight), so finishing a fermentation up at atmospheric pressure might speed things up. A pub can finish under pressure, set-it-and-forget-it, and have equalized brite beer without having to work too hard to get there.

So, I'm musing about dry hopping and was interested in some assistance from the croud. Yeehaw.

The last ferment I did went at 5 psi up until the last few points. Then I threw in the dry hops. Then I capped the fermenter and got up to 25 PSI at 75 degrees, so nearly full carbonation. Guess I caught it right at the end there. However, before yeast had fully dropped out, I was into 7 days of dry hop and didn't want to chance any off flavors from too long a dry hop. I dry hopped at 75 degrees for around 5 days and cold crashed for about 2 @ 34*. Beer was still way cloudy when I transferred to serving vessels (WLP 051 California V). I just couldn't dry hop for any longer to wait for crashing to work more.

So, the question is- how do we get full carbonation at the end of a fermentation, leave enough time for the yeast to finish up and drop out during a cold crash, while all at the same time avoiding over extending the dry hopping time? (the obvious solution being to use a secondary for dry hopping)

Any suggestions? I'm sure this has been covered already four score posts ago.

Prior to pressurized fermenting, I've always left my dryhops in the serving keg, never really had a problem of 'too long'.

So I wouldnt sweat if it takes 2 weeks for the beer to clear out. In fact thats what I did on my last pale ale. After a week at 5 psi, I added dryhops in a weighted hop sock, ramped it up to 20 psi, and left it there for 2 more weeks at around 35F. Then I transferred under pressure to serving keg, leaving the hopsock behind. No grassy flavors, perfect hop aroma and flavor!

I should note that I only dryhopped one of the two corny kegs. The other is sitting in the ferm chamber conditioning away at roughly 25 psi (60F). I will probably transfer that one into serving keg with hopbag and leave it in there for the duration of serving, just to compare what the differences are.

SankePankey said:

However, before yeast had fully dropped out, I was into 7 days of dry hop and didn't want to chance any off flavors from too long a dry hop. .

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remember... IPA's were dry hopped for 5-7 months as they were in transit from England to India. Don't worry about a longer dry hop.

I have experienced too long of a dry hop where the beer got a little vegetal. Surprised I'm alone. Not saying it doesn't make beer the other way, historical or not.

Well, Jamil says.....

Anyways thanks for the tip.

Mysticmead said:

remember... IPA's were dry hopped for 5-7 months as they were in transit from England to India. Don't worry about a longer dry hop.

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My experience has been that too long a dry hop doesn't seem to matter. I think this can be tricky, though as IPA's tend to change their character as the beer ages. So sometimes the difference between those early pints of IPA and the last of a keg that's been around a while make me wonder. It's not a bad beer. Just different. I don't think too long dry hopping is the issue, though.

My 2 cents.

Jumping into the fray... My only experience with an extended dry hop turned out really well. In early June I CP transfered my pressure ferment to the serving keg (with loose leaf hops and a SureScreen). It sat there for about 5 days before I took the keg (and lugged my 20 lb. CO2 Tank ) to buddy's bachelor party. Needless to say, there was lots and lots of beer everywhere and my keg still had 1/3 left. Well... I completely forgot about it until 2 weeks ago..thinking I'll have grassy grassy grassy beer, I was pleasantly surprised when the beer had a buttload of hop flavor (more than I remember) and no grass.

Again...only 1 incident.

However, some helpful ideas for Sanke (you've probably considered some of these) You can do what I did and dry hop in the serving keg. Which, at room temperature, is good for 7 days or so. But at serving temps (or colder), the aroma is slower to develop. I remember a NG Crack'd Wheat clone that took a little over 2 weeks to reach full aroma...and it never got grassy.

For you, if you dry hop for 5 days, then crash cool, you probably have a bonus 2 days, maybe more if you're close to freezing, meaning a 9-11 day dry hop might be closer to the aroma you'd get from 7 days at 75˚.

you could always build a randall and push through the hops on the way to the glass

Just pitched the yeast on my first pressurized fermentation! Thanks to all for all the suggestions, particularly about bottling directly from the fermentor. I'll post my results in a couple of weeks.

One other unexpected advantage: I typically use a sintered stone and those little welding bottles to oxygenate, but this time I just hooked the O2 bottle up to the liquid line. The oxygen bubbled up from the bottom, filled the headspace, and then absorbed into the wort under pressure. If I can figure out how to measure my dosing, I suspect this will be an easy and efficient way to get the job done.

I liked it when I pressurized my fermentor with pure O2. I shook it though, so I don't know how much would get into suspension with doing it as you did. I bet it works like a charm though.

WortMonger said:

I liked it when I pressurized my fermentor with pure O2. I shook it though, so I don't know how much would get into suspension with doing it as you did. I bet it works like a charm though.

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Yeah, I thought about shaking after the fact, but the headspace pressure had equalized after an hour or so, which makes me think that the bulk went into solution. I'm pretty sure I don't have a leak.

Let us know as soon as you see activity via your pressure gauge. I can't wait for you to get as excited as I did the first time.

That is kind of how I make my starters, in my 3 gal corny. I don't bother breaking out the sintered stone to dose the wort. I just seal up the corny and pressurize it with O2. Shake a bunch and put the spunding valve on it at say 3 PSI or so and let the starter eat oxygen under pressure until it's sending out CO2.

It's certainly not the usual and I have no idea if this means anything good or bad to yeast development. Works for me though and I don't have to bother with the stone.

storunner13 said:

However, some helpful ideas for Sanke (you've probably considered some of these) You can do what I did and dry hop in the serving keg. Which, at room temperature, is good for 7 days or so. But at serving temps (or colder), the aroma is slower to develop. I remember a NG Crack'd Wheat clone that took a little over 2 weeks to reach full aroma...and it never got grassy.

For you, if you dry hop for 5 days, then crash cool, you probably have a bonus 2 days, maybe more if you're close to freezing, meaning a 9-11 day dry hop might be closer to the aroma you'd get from 7 days at 75˚.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestions. I have dry hopped cold and warm and I'm not sure if there's a difference, but I'll have to try an extended dry hop and see what happens. It's true thought that the hop character does change a lot from day to day and it's hard to attribute it to one thing or another.

California V is taking forever to drop out, though, from the starter wort to the final beer. Not sure why. My water is fine. I don't use any finings really and might start now.

I have been seriously considering gelatin in the future. Just seems so easy to use, plus easy enough to inject under CO2 pressure into the keg. We'll see though. Time is really worth it, and if you have beer to drink in the mean time... you don't even worry about it.

Wort, do you serve from your fermenter? I can't remember and I'm not about to go through 107 pages.

Lager update, my Novemberfest is pouring right now and it's gorgeous. Brewed on 10/1 and poured on 10/3. It would have benefitted from a decoction mash for more body in the lager, but it is quaffable already. I love pressure fermentation.

WortMonger said:

Let us know as soon as you see activity via your pressure gauge. I can't wait for you to get as excited as I did the first time.

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I woke up this morning to find a gentle hiss and ten pounds of pressure! I'm still trying to figure out how many valve turns equals how many psi, but somehow I ended up exactly where I wanted to be on my first shot. Thanks for your help everyone, and WortMonger...you're enthusiasm is infections

I know that the pressure will slow down yeast activity and that many people bump up the temperature to compensate. Certainly, the exact contours here will vary from system to system, but until I get a feel for things does anyone have a rule of thumb? If I'm starting out at 10 psi and gradually ramping up to 25, how much do I want to raise my temperatures to get a roughly equivalent fermentation?

I've got 10 gal of BM's Centennial Blonde that just finished up pressurized fermentation. It is split between 2 cornies with my spunding valve connected to a tee between the two liquid ports. I am thinking about using gelatin, but am undecided about how to go about it. The way I see it I can: 1) add the gelatin directly to these corny kegs, cold crash, then transfer to serving kegs. 2) transfer, add gelatin, cold crash, transfer again 3) or some other combination of steps. What metod would you guys suggest for ending up with a good balance of the least amount of sediment in the serving kegs with the least amount of work. Basically, I am just looking to have serving kegs that will not take too long to pour clear after transporting.

flananuts said:

Wort, do you serve from your fermenter? I can't remember and I'm not about to go through 107 pages.

Lager update, my Novemberfest is pouring right now and it's gorgeous. Brewed on 10/1 and poured on 10/3. It would have benefitted from a decoction mash for more body in the lager, but it is quaffable already. I love pressure fermentation.

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I have served from my fermentor before, but that was just to see if I could. I wouldn't recommend doing so due to that much yeast, but it worked just fine.

I assume you meant 10/1 and poured 11/3, right? Otherwise, that would be the fastest lager I have ever heard of, lol. I loved the flavors I got from a decoction. I once did a triple on a APA and it was heaven in a glass. I used my pressure canner to cook the mash and used it like a double boiler, with a large mixing bowl inside.

MalFet said:

I woke up this morning to find a gentle hiss and ten pounds of pressure! I'm still trying to figure out how many valve turns equals how many psi, but somehow I ended up exactly where I wanted to be on my first shot. Thanks for your help everyone, and WortMonger...you're enthusiasm is infections

I know that the pressure will slow down yeast activity and that many people bump up the temperature to compensate. Certainly, the exact contours here will vary from system to system, but until I get a feel for things does anyone have a rule of thumb? If I'm starting out at 10 psi and gradually ramping up to 25, how much do I want to raise my temperatures to get a roughly equivalent fermentation?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't bump up anything until you are a few days in. 10 psi is where I used to start and would stay there until the very end. Then I would let my pressure build to wanted volumes and leave it alone until it was done. Now I do bump my temperature up about 4 degrees after the majority of yeast has done its job as a insurance policy against diacetyl, as well as speeding up the finish.

I hope my enthusiasm helps others try this and after that, I hope they love it as much as I do. This system is great, and is actually easier for me than the normal way of doing things. Sure I can't see what is going on, but it has made me trust my procedures as a brewer. Kinda like flying an airplane by instrumentation only... scary, but if you trust your instruments it is possible.

skinny said:

I've got 10 gal of BM's Centennial Blonde that just finished up pressurized fermentation. It is split between 2 cornies with my spunding valve connected to a tee between the two liquid ports. I am thinking about using gelatin, but am undecided about how to go about it. The way I see it I can: 1) add the gelatin directly to these corny kegs, cold crash, then transfer to serving kegs. 2) transfer, add gelatin, cold crash, transfer again 3) or some other combination of steps. What metod would you guys suggest for ending up with a good balance of the least amount of sediment in the serving kegs with the least amount of work. Basically, I am just looking to have serving kegs that will not take too long to pour clear after transporting.

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You have the SV on your liquid ports? They should be on gas only or you will have beer coming out of them with the pressure you have in the kegs.

I have thought about this and I am still unsure about how to go about gelatin myself. I use Sanke, so it is even more difficult for me. I have come to think in my process I would like to add it to the fermentor, since I know I can add about a half gallon and not overflow my keg. Of course you wouldn't be adding that much water/gelatin mixture to the kegs anyway. I think the best way would be to use another keg, in your case a third, and counter-pressure fill the fermentor with it. This way you are still under the positive pressures, still have your CO2 volumes, and have a keg that is simply gelatin to clean up afterwords. Heck, you might not even worry about cleaning the jello keg and just refill it when you transfer from your fermentor(s). I would not bother with racking to another set of kegs just to add gelatin, only to have to rack again unless I was going to dry-hop or something, but that is just me. If your setup makes that easier then go for it, I just hate cleaning kegs.

I meant the SV is between the two gas ports. I like your train of thought on this. I think I am going to add the gelatin to the intended serving kegs, counter-pressure into the fermenting kegs and leave the serving kegs sealed up until the gelatin has had time to do its thing, then counter-pressure back to serving kegs and enjoy.

Sounds like a great plan using two kegs to do this. Now you can measure appropriately in each keg and know exactly what is going into your fermentors, as well as not have to clean anything you aren't already using.

Hey Wortmonger -
Thanks so much for this technique, it's gone really well for me so far !
a few hundred pages back, you mentioned using a stir plate to stir the primary in a sanke. I recently got a Black MAXX stir plate from stir-plate.com, and asked if it would work on a stainless keg, they thought it wouldn't, but I tried anyway It spins just fine ! The case is tough enough for a 5gallon batch, but a full sanke would probably be too much. I'm going to cut 4" off the top of a 5gal bucket, put the stir plate underneath, and the sanke on the bucket ring. So far I've only tested with about 4 gallons of water, and have to work today, but i'll try it with 10G soon.. The stir plate has no problem whipping a vortex into the top of a 5gallon carboy !

Awesome! I can't wait to hear your results as I haven't had the chance to try anything other than a boil kettle test. It spun the keggle while full of water. I hope you get a chance to test it with a batch and see what it does. I'm also interested in finding out how much one has to cut off a dip-tube to allow for the spin when located on the Sanke bottom.

We were just talking about O2 pressure aeration... just think how easy a stir bar would work in conjunction with pressurized O2 for greatly increasing the absorption into the wort prior to fermentation. Then you have the increase in yeast to wort surface area since everything is being moved around. One wouldn't have to worry about the things that make a stirred starter taste bad, since you are under pressure and only in contact with CO2. I bet krausen would be held down due to the circulation, allowing even greater amounts to ferment without worrying about a mess in your SV. Clean up would probably be accelerated due to the yeast to beer surface area increasing, which could also be done at lagering temperatures for a speedy lagering period.

I don't see anything but good and have wanted to add this simplistic method to the process for a long time now. Go for it!

I've used gelatin for the purpose of trying and before I had my freezer/chamber. Now I just cold crash and run through a 1micron filter to keep any sediment from passing through. I rigged a counter pressure setup pretty cheap and I love it. What's great with the brass needle valve is I can just put it in a bucket and any foam from the transfer just gets pushed out the gas ports into a bucket. I out a link to it in case you are interested. Yes, two weeks ferment at 48degree, two weeks crashed at 33 degrees and it pours deliciously. My father and father in law prolly drank a half gallon of it yesterday. No diacetyl yet again with this 5psi and straight 48 degree ferm on bock, Bavarian lager, and pilsner.



On another note, my wife and I welcomed our third child and first son to the family yesterday and I toasted a pressure fermented Fest beer in his honor!

My 2nd pressurized fermentation went well! I did a traditional immersion chilling and left the break material behind but picked up most all my hops. At the time of counter pressure transferring I let the first bit go into my dedicated spunding valve corny until it went clear, moved jumper to SV...,then noticed trash in the line at the last stage, pulled jumper.., nothing but clear beer in SV!

Here's 2 pictures of the 1st transfer;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/madscientistbrewhaus/6169480637/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/madscientistbrewhaus/6217054265/

skinny said:

I've got 10 gal of BM's Centennial Blonde that just finished up pressurized fermentation. It is split between 2 cornies with my spunding valve connected to a tee between the two liquid ports. I am thinking about using gelatin, but am undecided about how to go about it. The way I see it I can: 1) add the gelatin directly to these corny kegs, cold crash, then transfer to serving kegs. 2) transfer, add gelatin, cold crash, transfer again 3) or some other combination of steps. What metod would you guys suggest for ending up with a good balance of the least amount of sediment in the serving kegs with the least amount of work. Basically, I am just looking to have serving kegs that will not take too long to pour clear after transporting.

Click to expand...

I just counter pressure transferred my 2nd pressurized fermentation in cornys. I have used gelatin in buckets and conicals only and see that it's very thick and seems immobile at the bottom. What I would think is the best practice would be to put your gelatin solution in your empty SV and counter pressure transfer, wait 2-3 days and serve. I'm assuming here that the SV remains immobile too.

flananuts said:

Now I just cold crash and run through a 1micron filter to keep any sediment from passing through. I rigged a counter pressure setup pretty cheap and I love it. What's great with the brass needle valve is I can just put it in a bucket and any foam from the transfer just gets pushed out the gas ports into a bucket. I out a link to it in case you are interested.

On another note, my wife and I welcomed our third child and first son to the family yesterday and I toasted a pressure fermented Fest beer in his honor!

Click to expand...

Any chance you could do a complete and very detailed walk-thru of your filter setup. That is exactly as I do, only one keg at a time.

When you say needle valve, is that what is at the end of the two gas port lines on your kegs being filled? I think it is, but just to be clear for others reading I have to ask. Also, does your filter ever completely fill with beer while filtering? Mine is always much more full of beer than you showed in your video, so I wonder if you just don't purge your filter housing. Heck, maybe you don't even have a housing with a relief on it, lol. If you don't purge, how are you getting so much beer in your transfer lines after the filter? I had to turn my filter housing upside down to get pure beer during my transfer. I ask because of how the filter works. In your video it would seem you should get a lot more foam, but you don't??? I am curious since the filter works like a holey straw, and you have foam not beer right at the point before the beer goes up and out of the filter housing. I have had better luck, as I said, purging most of the foam/airspace out of the housing and then turning upside down during the transfer, but I would love to be able to use it the right way up.

Congrats on the new rug rat! Teach him well and in a couple of years you won't have to brew a drop of beer .

1MadScientist said:

I have used gelatin in buckets and conicals only and see that it's very thick and seems immobile at the bottom. What I would think is the best practice would be to put your gelatin solution in your empty SV and counter pressure transfer, wait 2-3 days and serve. I'm assuming here that the SV remains immobile too.

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So, the gelatin forms a "jello" on the bottom of the serving kegs? After the first pint or so it makes a clean area around the pick-up tube and you have clean beer?

Another confusing thing... when you say SV you are meaning serving vessel (keg) right? It gets confusing in this thread since we talk a lot about spunding valves (SV). I am just thinking for those that just start reading the thread this might be confusing.

WortMonger said:

So, the gelatin forms a "jello" on the bottom of the serving kegs? After the first pint or so it makes a clean area around the pick-up tube and you have clean beer?

Another confusing thing... when you say SV you are meaning serving vessel (keg) right?

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I haven't used gelatin with pre-carbonated beer, but it should work and behave the same way and most likely would form a dimple around the tube and left undisturbed would be fine until the keg blows.

I only used gelatin twice on a club competition APA and a keg that I brought to the ECBF we participated in.