New way to control Pellet Hop gunk!

FATC1TY said:

He's probably somewhat offended in his find that now people realize they aren't the cats ass.

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No, I just didn't understand your post so maybe I do need another beer ; )

I don't make any money on these - it was just an experiment that went viral. My initial thought was what the hell, if I use it in 10 brews it pays for itself in the cost of bags.... It also works fine for me so I am curious as to what is going on with your setup.

It's worked great for me too. This is the best piece of brewing equipment I've bought in awhile.

I don't think I'd use 12 oz of hops in it though. If I ever used that much in one recipe, I'd try maybe 8 oz max in the screen, remove it at knockout, whirlpool the last 4 oz, then use the screen to strain those out on their way into the bucket. Pushing it beyond what it can handle doesn't mean it doesn't work.

My theory on the utilization issue -- because it's definitely unnerving to see how little the wort moves inside the basket -- is that the alpha acids separate from the vegetable material and move throughout the BK. The temps are the same on both sides of the barrier too.

Finally, it's not like anyone just wants to shove a new thing into their BK. I've had a longstanding issue with my hoppier beers having a distinct vegetal note, which has always driven me nuts. For me, this 100% solved that issue. If I have to buy another ounce of hops to get my IBUs back up, so be it. I'll do that gladly.

dogbar said:

It's worked great for me too. This is the best piece of brewing equipment I've bought in awhile.

I don't think I'd use 12 oz of hops in it though. If I ever used that much in one recipe, I'd try maybe 8 oz max in the screen, remove it at knockout, whirlpool the last 4 oz, then use the screen to strain those out on their way into the bucket. Pushing it beyond what it can handle doesn't mean it doesn't work.

My theory on the utilization issue -- because it's definitely unnerving to see how little the wort moves inside the basket -- is that the alpha acids separate from the vegetable material and move throughout the BK. The temps are the same on both sides of the barrier too.

Finally, it's not like anyone just wants to shove a new thing into their BK. I've had a longstanding issue with my hoppier beers having a distinct vegetal note, which has always driven me nuts. For me, this 100% solved that issue. If I have to buy another ounce of hops to get my IBUs back up, so be it. I'll do that gladly.

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I had like 4.5-5 ounces in there... Far from 12oz. Less than some might have in an IPA in some cases!

FATC1TY said:

I had like 4.5-5 ounces in there... Far from 12oz. Less than some might have in an IPA in some cases!

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Then there's something else going on. Are you leaving it in throughout the cooling process? I take mine out because it doesn't fit with the immersion chiller. Maybe you're getting cold break stuck to it at that stage.

Just spitballing. When I take it out, dump it, and hose it off, it's like new immediately. Nothing sticks to the sides.

Have you tried building one large/sturdy enough to hold grain for a reusable BIAB setup?

my 300-micron should be arriving today. not sure when i'm next going to have a chance to brew with it, but i will report back when i do.

I have brewed three batches on my 400 micron one and have not had any issues. One of the batches used 12 oz of pellet and whole hops combined. I could see the eater boiling though the filter after I added the hops.

DrHops said:

I have brewed three batches on my 400 micron one and have not had any issues. One of the batches used 12 oz of pellet and whole hops combined. I could see the eater boiling though the filter after I added the hops.

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Stupid autocorrect, it should read " I could see the water boiling through the filter"

dogbar said:

Then there's something else going on. Are you leaving it in throughout the cooling process? I take mine out because it doesn't fit with the immersion chiller. Maybe you're getting cold break stuck to it at that stage.

Just spitballing. When I take it out, dump it, and hose it off, it's like new immediately. Nothing sticks to the sides.

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I do leave it in there, but I'll pull it out for a second as I put the IC in. I leave it in, because it contains the late addition hops that I want in there to steep while it's chilling. It's covered in crap and holds water well before I even put the chiller in there.

When I put my .5oz of FWH in there, I was dunking it around checking it out, and it was working just fine.. Once it starts to boil, and you put more in it.. It's gunked all to hell.

DrHops said:

Stupid autocorrect, it should read " I could see the water boiling through the filter"

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How much gunk is left behind with the 400? Do you use a plate chiller? While the flow through isn't great on my 300, cleaning cycle on my plate chillers is significantly shorter.

After a couple of uses i soak mine in Oxy free. Im using a 300 micron. Once the hops sink it starts to churn in the basket. When i stir the wort you can see in the basket that wort is flowing though it. I leave mine in the wort when chilling. I lift it up and place it in the middle. Mine take all of 30 seconds to completely drain. Most hops ive used in it is 4oz "mines a small one for 5 gal".

Even if you think its cleaned from spraying out. There is still some stuff left over "hence the oxy clean soak.

For you guys using an IC, why not free float the hops for the whole boil....chill...whirlpool...and let settle. Then just drain into one of these before the fermenter? As long as you have a diptube offset towards the vessel wall, I wouldn't think you'd pick up enough trub to clog a filter this size.....

ScubaSteve said:

For you guys using an IC, why not free float the hops for the whole boil....chill...whirlpool...and let settle. Then just drain into one of these before the fermenter? As long as you have a diptube offset towards the vessel wall, I wouldn't think you'd pick up enough trub to clog a filter this size.....

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Sounds great on paper! I can almost guarantee it would clog and you would have a situation on your hands.

I have heard of people using a paint strainer bag in their fermenting bucket in that fashion. I guess you line the fermenter much like you would a garbage can with a garbage bag. Just pull the strainer out with all the gunk leaving clear wort in the fermenter. I really like that idea!

Here is a shot during knockout of my 3 gallon IPA earlier this week(half drained through CFC to fermenter). The filter had 39 grams of pellets in it going into 0 minutes.

I added my 0 minute addition directly to the kettle as I felt the utilization would be severely hindered in the filter.

BxBrewer said:

After a couple of uses i soak mine in Oxy free. Im using a 300 micron. Once the hops sink it starts to churn in the basket. When i stir the wort you can see in the basket that wort is flowing though it. I leave mine in the wort when chilling. I lift it up and place it in the middle. Mine take all of 30 seconds to completely drain. Most hops ive used in it is 4oz "mines a small one for 5 gal".

Even if you think its cleaned from spraying out. There is still some stuff left over "hence the oxy clean soak.

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For my setup, I rinse it out to clean and then set it in my bucket of starsan (not to sterilize - just because its there and nothing else goes into it after I have prepped my conical) once I clean the brew kettle and start heating water to recirc 160 degree pbw theoughthe plate chiller I place the filter back in the kettle next to the whirlpool fitting so it gets a nice long cleaning cycle with the plate chillers. Not really necessary but I'm doing it anyways so what the heck.

jammin said:

Here is a shot during knockout of my 3 gallon IPA earlier this week(half drained through CFC to fermenter). The filter had 39 grams of pellets in it going into 0 minutes.

I added my 0 minute addition directly to the kettle as I felt the utilization would be severely hindered in the filter.

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I get the same thing. Look how much wort is still in the filter, versus the kettle.

I might just take it as a loss, and just add pellets loose, and the leaf to the strainer. The leaf won't clog it up, and I guess I'd have to see if the pellets in the boil would stick to the filter and clog it up, but I would venture to say it would be okay.

Then, do my normal chill, whirlpool, add any additions, settle it out while I clean up, and then take my funnel, set the filter on it, and drain into it and into the funnel into the carboy. You would get pretty clean wort from the whirlpool and settle, and then would be able to get greedy at the end and get as much wort as possible.

It seems that NOTHING can stop the hop pellet sludge from clogging filters. I wonder what the brewing industry uses?

I've been toying with the idea of some sort of centrifuge....drain the wort into a central spinning cylinder made of mesh, and centrifugal force will pull the wort through the screen and into an outer chamber shaped like a conical fermenter....the wort is slung against the sides (aerated) and drained down the funnel. Kinda like the spin-dry cycle on a washing machine.

I think part of the problem is these threads don't have a good baseline as to what the specs are for their setup and the results are correlated back to a spec. Size of spider (diameter and length) matters, as does the size of mesh. Most threads using a 400 micron mesh are reporting excellent results, with the issue being how many hops it will hold, which could resolved by getting a larger hop spider! 200 micron screens readily clog, and couldn't be expected to do otherwise. Thanks to everyone for blazing the trail though for those of us slower folks. With all that said, I think people might buying these undersized. A 6 x 18 cylinder has roughly 500 cu inches of volume, going to a 8" diameter almost doubles your volume with the same 18" length, (900 cu inches, ) and a 12 x 18 has a volume of over 2,000 cubic inches. Something to consider if you can "only" get x ounces in it, and need more volume.

We are looking to get a 12 x 24 / 400 micron spider made, for. 1bbl system, and feel confident it will satisfy a) a large capacity of hops (36 oz) and b) achieve a good balance of flow and filtration... We will certainly report back our results. We are moving to a plate chiller and are expecting a lot of this next purchase.

ScubaSteve said:

It seems that NOTHING can stop the hop pellet sludge from clogging filters. I wonder what the brewing industry uses?

I've been toying with the idea of some sort of centrifuge....drain the wort into a central spinning cylinder made of mesh, and centrifugal force will pull the wort through the screen and into an outer chamber shaped like a conical fermenter....the wort is slung against the sides (aerated) and drained down the funnel. Kinda like the spin-dry cycle on a washing machine.

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You could always pick up one of these... http://www.westfalia-separator.com/.../product/separator-profi-300i-profi-400i.html

br1dge said:

You could always pick up one of these... http://www.westfalia-separator.com/products/product-finder/product-finder-detail/product/separator-profi-300i-profi-400i.html

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That's perfect! My kieselguhr has REALLY been pissing me of lately!

jammin said:

Here is a shot during knockout of my 3 gallon IPA earlier this week(half drained through CFC to fermenter). The filter had 39 grams of pellets in it going into 0 minutes.

I added my 0 minute addition directly to the kettle as I felt the utilization would be severely hindered in the filter.

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That is really odd. Less than 1.5 ounces of hops? Mine looks nothing like that with double or more that amount.

I don't know how much the volume contained by the bigger strainer helps. The issue would be surface area to get/stay clogged/unclogged, right? And that doesn't grow nearly as dramatically as you go up in size.

I'm still going back to break material as a possible cause and difference. Although, hell, could it even be something as simple as different hops?

uberg33k said:

Have you tried building one large/sturdy enough to hold grain for a reusable BIAB setup?

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^^????^^

The builder can't respond due to forum rules. It's been talked about, but I haven't seen someone say they did it.

I am thinking about having one of these sized for my current pot and the pot I am stepping up to in a few weeks. I have been doing volume calculations based on what I think would fit in my system (I thought I'd left that kind of math behind me years ago).

I'm stuck now at trying to figure out what volume of pellet hops a particular sized strainer would hold once the hops were saturated with wort. I can use a measuring cup to figure out what approximate physical volume an ounce of dried, pelletized hopes would occupy.

But is there a number or calculation out there that says, once they are saturated with wort and begin to expand, the hops will increase x% in size, or volume? Not sure exactly what calculation I am looking for, but surely someone has had to account for this expansion in terms of physical space before.

dogbar said:

That is really odd. Less than 1.5 ounces of hops? Mine looks nothing like that with double or more that amount.

I don't know how much the volume contained by the bigger strainer helps. The issue would be surface area to get/stay clogged/unclogged, right? And that doesn't grow nearly as dramatically as you go up in size.

I'm still going back to break material as a possible cause and difference. Although, hell, could it even be something as simple as different hops?

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I have the small size he sells on his ebay store with 300 micron mesh.

I did have a good hot break on my boil with BIAB so I'm sure there is elevated break material compared to my 3 kettle system.

Regardless - the performance speaks for itself. I wouldn't advise the use of this product for late addition hops, especially those from 10 minutes - flameout.

Perhaps the 400 micron with use of leaf hops might be a more viable system.

jammin said:

Regardless - the performance speaks for itself. I wouldn't advise the use of this product for late addition hops, especially those from 10 minutes - flameout.

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it's my understanding that the oils in hops get into solution rather quickly, so extended contact with boiling wort isn't that important. the oils are quickly washed out and then proceed to be isomerized, volatilized, etc in the wort.

i haven't used mine yet, but when i do i will use a ladle to spoon some wort from outside the hopper into it - essentially recirculating hot wort through the mesh when i add my late hops.

sweetcell said:

it's my understanding that the oils in hops get into solution rather quickly, so extended contact with boiling wort isn't that important. the oils are quickly washed out and then proceed to be isomerized, volatilized, etc in the wort.

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"Quickly washed out" - lol. I wish(srsly). Hurry up and brew with it so you understand what we are talking about. Hopefully you have better luck than me - there is no way I was throwing my 0 minute addition in that train wreck of a filter.

sweetcell said:

i haven't used mine yet, but when i do i will use a ladle to spoon some wort from outside the hopper into it - essentially recirculating hot wort through the mesh when i add my late hops.

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Cool, I look forward to hearing from you when you actually have some experience using it. I tried the ladle concept as well and found that it would not drain out into the kettle very quickly at all. In fact, I think you are just introducing more break material inside the filter leading to more clogging.

jammin said:

I have the small size he sells on his ebay store with 300 micron mesh.

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So maybe size really does matter. I have the 6x14 and am not having the same issues you are.

jammin said:

Regardless - the performance speaks for itself.

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I mean, I'd say the same thing. Except I'd mean that in a good way. It doesn't seem like performance on any one person's system can definitively predict performance on another's.

dogbar said:

So maybe size really does matter. I have the 6x14 and am not having the same issues you are.

I mean, I'd say the same thing. Except I'd mean that in a good way. It doesn't seem like performance on any one person's system can definitively predict performance on another's.

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agreed! wish I was having better luck with mine.

jammin said:

In fact, I think you are just introducing more break material inside the filter leading to more clogging.

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Your photo does seem to show a better hot break than I get. Question: Do you use irish moss or whirlfloc? If the former, did you put some both in and out of the filter?

I use whirlfloc and just dropped the tab in the main kettle area. I wonder if the whirlfloc-y compounds are even making it across the screen. Maybe not? Maybe that's why less break material / clogging inside?

^whirlfloc in the main kettle. Ill try my luck again later this month a couple times. I have a couple pilot batches I want to brew anyways.

winvarin said:

I am thinking about having one of these sized for my current pot and the pot I am stepping up to in a few weeks. I have been doing volume calculations based on what I think would fit in my system (I thought I'd left that kind of math behind me years ago).

I'm stuck now at trying to figure out what volume of pellet hops a particular sized strainer would hold once the hops were saturated with wort. I can use a measuring cup to figure out what approximate physical volume an ounce of dried, pelletized hopes would occupy.

But is there a number or calculation out there that says, once they are saturated with wort and begin to expand, the hops will increase x% in size, or volume? Not sure exactly what calculation I am looking for, but surely someone has had to account for this expansion in terms of physical space before.

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Winvarin - i don't know of a formula or assumption we could use to compare dry with wet pellet "volume." But this might help visualize the sizes and capacities - a 6 x 18 is 2.2 gallons of volume, a 8 x 18 equals 3.75 gallons, and a 12 x 18 equals 8.75 gallons. I spoke with stainless brewing about a custom size, and he suggested the 6 x 18 would hold 16 oz of pellet hops, guessing conservatively. Assuming a linear curve, a 8 x 18 would hold 28 oz, and a 12 x 18 would hold close to 60 ounces. (I didn't scale these precisely, btw) I believe he was speaking in terms of volume, not square area of surface.

Another poster pointed out the surface area does not grow to the extent volume does with larger sizes, which is true. The corresponding surface areas for these 3 sizes are 395, 552, and 904 sq inches, respectively. For further reference 904 sq " is a little bigger than 9 sq feet.

Go big or go home.

br1dge said:

You could always pick up one of these... http://www.westfalia-separator.com/.../product/separator-profi-300i-profi-400i.html

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Man...I do this a lot....inventing things that have already been invented. If only I had a time machine......

I know that some highly regarded breweries (Stone for example) throw their hops right in the boil and also do a lot of whirlpool hopping. I'm gonna say it right now: The BEST way to get the BEST hop utilization during the boil is to free float your hops!

Whirlpooling is a very valuable process and is basically "free". It keeps everything in the center of the kettle and if the output is at the side it will avoid the majority of the hops.

If you're not specifically using a plate chiller, I am at a loss for a reason to filter down to 300 microns. The 400 micron model in this thread has gotten my interest though...and I wouldn't be unhappy with even less filtration (450-500?)....if 80% of the hop material stays in the basket, that would avoid most if not all problems with clogging/cleaning/fermenting/etc. and a whirlpool would take care of the rest.

So is this really that much better than a painters bag?

Frogmanx82 said:

So is this really that much better than a painters bag?

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Probably not, but i'll try

1) It's stainless. Its more bling and it never wears out compared to a strainer
2) ability to stir inside hop container vessel, which in theory may increase utilization
3) easier to clean and sanitize
4) you will never misplace it, or run out of strainer bags
5) it doubles as a mash strainer/vorlauf, and even post boil filter
6) if you run electric, no worry it will touch element and melt
7) after your wort is cool, less,risk of infection removing paint strainer bags from bottom of boil kettle

I have my paint strainer bag suspended over the wort similar to this http://billybrew.com/hop-filter-build so it works about the same and is better than a bag just tied over the side. If you run electric that would be an issue though I guess that's a minority of brewers.

For now I'm happy with the paint strainer but I do agree the stainless is much shinier and something about it makes me want one.

br1dge said:

I spoke with stainless brewing about a custom size, and he suggested the 6 x 18 would hold 16 oz of pellet hops, guessing conservatively. Assuming a linear curve, a 8 x 18 would hold 28 oz, and a 12 x 18 would hold close to 60 ounces. (I didn't scale these precisely, btw) I believe he was speaking in terms of volume, not square area of surface.

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Are those numbers assuming saturated hops or just the amount of volume dry hops would fill?

I usually put no more than 2 ounces per muslin "hop sock" that swells to about softball size depending on how tight I tie it off. I have a stainless bowl and colander that I sanitize on brew day. After starting my IC I retrieve the hop bags. Colander goes into the bowl and the bags go into the colander. Once they stop draining, the liquid goes back into the wort and chills with everything else. Low tech but workable.

I'm stepping up to 10 gal batches this winter and this strainer might be a good alternative as my LHBS carries mostly pellets.

I am considering something on the order of 6x12 If my volume calculation is correct, that's something on the order of a 1.3 gallon vessel. Even saturated with wort, that would be a lot of pellet hops.

I'm considering also dropping a false bottom in the BK of the system I am putting together. For those times when I do use leaf hops, I could just toss them straight into the wort and let the FB catch them. The strainer would be for pellets only.

God love my dear wife. It's cost me 2 yrs of Christmas presents, but I've been given the go ahead to "buy the system you want. You get to do this once so get something you'll be happy with". I wonder if she realizes how big a can of worms she's opened?

winvarin said:

Are those numbers assuming saturated hops or just the amount of volume dry hops would fill?
?

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I don't know, but its clearly not dry. I'd guess you could fit 3lbs of dry pellet hops in a gallon container. Also, My math or your math is wrong, cause I got over 2g of volume for a 6 x 18.

br1dge said:

Probably not, but i'll try

1) It's stainless. Its more bling and it never wears out compared to a strainer
2) ability to stir inside hop container vessel, which in theory may increase utilization
3) easier to clean and sanitize
4) you will never misplace it, or run out of strainer bags
5) it doubles as a mash strainer/vorlauf, and even post boil filter
6) if you run electric, no worry it will touch element and melt
7) after your wort is cool, less,risk of infection removing paint strainer bags from bottom of boil kettle

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I'll add number 8....it's not made of plastic, nylon, etc. Way too many homebrewers are bringing their high temp wort into contact with plastics...whether it's vinyl tubing, a cooler mashtun, etc. I am really trying to get away from that because of off flavors and carcinogens.