Plastic water bottle as secondary?

I know I've looked that #7 5gallon water bottles can be used as a secondary. I have a in with a guy w/ several of these and he will give me a few.

Question is am I right about the #7 plastic bottles?

The plastic water cool jugs are not air inhibited which means that your beer will oxidize as it ages.

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the difference between PET bottles or Better Bottles and 5gal water bottles?

I just found the thread that I was thinking about. Looks like I will be on the hunt for a PET bottles. Thanks Gartywood for the help.

A buddy of mine just used a regular 5 gallon sparklets style water bottle as a primary fermenter. His beer sat in there for 3 weeks before bottling I offered him a better bottle or a bucket but he said he didn't want it. His beer turned out just fine.

I use my 5 gallon water bottles all the time but I only secondary for a week, whether it be on fruit or dry hops.

Mostly I use them to mix and store Star San though.

I use the 5 gallon cube water bottles for more than a year now, no problems, no off flavors, no oxidation. They cost about $6 at the grocery store and several HB suppliers do sell them too.

Lots of people say that the containers should be marked with a triangle that has a "1" in it for long term aging. I've had luck with the ones marked "3" for 30 days aging, however most Sparklets bottles are "7," which people say permeate oxygen. I would stay away from "7"s personally. Specifically if it's for longer than a few weeks.

Walmart sells 5gal "3"s for $7.

I used to work for a very large bottled water company. Those 5 gal carboys will work fine. You would have to leave your beer in one for many, many, MANY months before you would see any oxidization.

Bottled water will pick up off flavors very quickly, that's why it has a shelf life. The shelf life for most 5 gal water bottles is at least 6 months, and could be up to a year.

I like better bottles because they hold more (6gal), but would not hesitate to use a good, clean 5 gal plastic water carboy again.

Now, go brew some beer.......

The longest I've kept anything in secondary is two weeks. I'm looking to start lagering and I will definitely get a BB or PET bottle for that. But while a batch is lagering, I'd like to keep an ale or something else still cycling through. I may try a water bottle for the ales, just to give it a shot. Sure beat the hell out of racking to the bottling bucket, cleaning and sanitizing the fermenting bucket and then re-racking the beer back to the fermenter.

Got two 5 gallon batches going through secondary right now, a Belgium Wit and A TX Pale Ale.

I'll admit I do not know much about the permeability of plastic water bottles but if they tend to oxidize a regular beer, I could see them being useful for sour beers such as a Flanders Red.

bleme said:

I use my 5 gallon water bottles all the time but I only secondary for a week, whether it be on fruit or dry hops.

Mostly I use them to mix and store Star San though.

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Had any problems with the star San yet? That stuff will eat through plastic long enough if left to sit. Probably depends on the type though, because the concentrate is stored in a plastic container and seems to be fine.

jma99 said:

I used to work for a very large bottled water company. Those 5 gal carboys will work fine. You would have to leave your beer in one for many, many, MANY months before you would see any oxidization.

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Do you know the rating of the bottles you worked with? Most of the water bottles I've bought are the ones with a "3" in the triangle. Sparklet's is the only one I've seen that has "7"s. Thanks.

brewguyver said:

Had any problems with the star San yet? That stuff will eat through plastic long enough if left to sit. Probably depends on the type though, because the concentrate is stored in a plastic container and seems to be fine.

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The eight or so months I've been brewing, I've kept pre-mixed starsan in a 1gal arrowhead bottle and there's no sign of deterioration. I would assume that the first sign would be hazyness on the inside, but there's nothing.



BTW: http://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/Plastics/Resins/

CLASS 1: PET or PETE (polyethylene terephthalate)
Most commonly recycled plastic, is used to make two-liter soda bottles and plastic liquor bottles. Recycled into many products such as bottles for cleaning products and non-food items, egg cartons, and fibers (carpet, T-shirts, fleece, etc.).

CLASS 2: HDPE (high density polyethylene)
Also a commonly recycled plastic, used to make milk and juice bottles. Recycled into many products such as lumber substitutes, base cups for soft drink bottles, flowerpots, toys, pails and drums, traffic barrier cones, bottle carriers, and trashcans.

CLASS 3: V or PVC (polyvinyl chloride)
Used to make flooring, shower curtains, house siding, garden hoses, and many other products. Not currently recycled.

CLASS 4: LDPE (low density polyethylene)
Used to make cellophane wrap, disposable diaper liners and squeeze bottles. Not commonly recycled.

CLASS 5: PP (polypropylene)
Used to make packaging pipes, tubes, long underwear. Not commonly recycled.

CLASS 6: PS (polystyrene)
You may know this as "Styrofoam." Used to make coffee cups, take-out food packaging, egg cartons, and packaging "peanuts." Recycled in some areas and made into the same type of products, insulation, plastic "wood," and hard plastic pens.

CLASS 7: Other
All other plastic resins or a mixture of resins. Not commonly recycled. More detailed information about these plastics (and some others) their properties, and recycled products that can be made from them is available on the Definitions and Specifications page.

Sigh. Not the old "Oxygen permeabilty" of plastics nonsense again. That old myth has been broken down to what it really is Propaganda from the glass carboy industry, that most people except gullible noobs, laugh it off. They "permeabilty" factor of most 21st century plastics is actually such a miniscule difference from glass carboys, despite what some sellers might say, and have been saying for a decade, since better bottlesn hit the markeyt, it's REALLY NOT something to worry about.

We really need to quit repeating what he "heard" or read, but haven't researched for ourselves. Half the **** you've read or heard is just myth and conjecture repeated with little or no understanding, and the other 90 percent is just plain out dated information.

Plenty of folks use water bottles to ferment or secondary in, so can we PLEEZE put the permeability myth to bed?

The BIGGEST issue about using waterbottles is the chemical leaching of certain plastics over time. <1> and <2> plastics are fine. The biggest worry is number 7 bottles. Which tend to be the "dumping ground" of plastics. You really don't know what's in them. Some folks don't worry. I've used 7's for things on occasions if I'm out of fermenters, and regardless of beers or wines, they've never oxdized or anything any different than any other fermenter.

If you don't have anything available, and if you are only secondarying for a few weeks, it's up to you. Me, I wouldn't hesitate to use it for a short time.

Ignore the permeability "argument" and think only about the chemicals in the plastics....and make your own mind. And read the modern info on plastic in brewing, not some 10 year old passage in a book, but what's being used now.

Revvy said:

Sigh. Not the old "Oxygen permeabilty" of plastics nonsense again. That old myth has been broken down to what it really is Propaganda from the glass carboy industry, that most people except gullible noobs, laugh it off.

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OMG Revvy!!, thank you SO MUCH! I've been thinking that it sounds ridiculous but trusting what others said about it. PVC is innate until you boil it.

On a side note and funny as hell, but also sad... one of my LHBS owners actually convinced one of his customers that POLLEN, like from a PLANT, can seep through the solid plastic in a better bottle and infect a batch. He then proceeded to sell him a whole new set of better bottles to remedy his "pollen infection" problem. So the point is that if POLLEN can permeate solid PET plastic, then surely Oxygen can....

nevery said:

OMG Revvy!!, thank you SO MUCH! I've been thinking that it sounds ridiculous but trusting what others said about it. PVC is innate until you boil it.

On a side note and funny as hell, but also sad... one of my LHBS owners actually convinced one of his customers that POLLEN, like from a PLANT, can seep through the solid plastic in a better bottle and infect a batch. He then proceeded to sell him a whole new set of better bottles to remedy his "pollen infection" problem. So the point is that if POLLEN can permeate solid PET plastic, the surely Oxygen can....

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Wow...now that's a clueless LHBS owner.

Sounds more shady than clueless.

Well I scored a FREE #1 5gallon water bottle. Not really worried about the whole o2 permeability, due to a better bottle is made of the same damn plastic. I will be getting a glass one for lagering but I only secondary for a week or two at the most for Ales. Thanks.

Concho said:

Well I scored a FREE #1 5gallon water bottle. Not really worried about the whole o2 permeability, due to a better bottle is made of the same damn plastic. I will be getting a glass one for lagering but I only secondary for a week or two at the most for Ales. Thanks.

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Just my opinion, I would lager in your #1 plastic and avoid glass. The risk of breakage and making a mess of blood and beer is far to great for me!

jma99 said:

Bottled water will pick up off flavors very quickly, that's why it has a shelf life. The shelf life for most 5 gal water bottles is at least 6 months, and could be up to a year.

Now, go brew some beer.......

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To add to this, the atmosphere inside a the fermenter is higher, thus CO2 coming out of the air lock, so even if a gas could get through the plastic CO2 inside would be pushing out. Then after when the air lock liquid is uneven, the pressure is still higher inside the vessel than out.

and what Revvy said, think of a bottle of soda and all the pressure they are under, if the plastic let the gas in it would have to let it out. Sodas would lose all CO2 in a madder of days.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/5-gallon-plastic-hedpack-with-cap.html

This is what I use as a secondary as they lend themselves to cold crashing very well. I am able to get mine locally for $6 at the discount grocery. I was a bit worried after some forum post but checked the code on the bottom (fine) and when I saw midwest selling them, took away any fear about the wrong purchase. These cubes fit my kids college fridge really well, they carry well and clean really good.

Oh and it's a number 13 stopper for the airlock. About $3.

I saw something like those a Wal-Mart the other day, in camping department. They where somewhere around 5 gallons and dark blue w/ spigot.

here found it.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Coleman-5-Gallon-Water-Carrier-Blue/21156004

also these, they are BPA free and high-density polyethylene (HDPE).

http://www.gamma2.net/vittles-vault-50.htm

A lot of folks use those (brand name Aquatainer) for no chill brewing.