Hop Whirlpooling (flame out) additions. Basic Questions.

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Jayhem

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So I have been reading through many threads on the technique of "Hop Whirlpooling" which is the addition of hops after the boil.

There is much disagreement on the proper way to do this.

Some brewers just toss in pellets at flame out, start their wort chiller and proceed as usual. Others put the hops in a muslin bag and whirlpool them for 20, 30 or even 60 minutes before even starting the chiller. Still others let the wort cool below about 160F before even adding the hops to prevent the volatile aromas from escaping.

So what gives?

1. What is the best way to add aroma and flavor with whirlpool hops? Loose pellets or leaf? Just toss them into the wort or place in a hop bag and remove once chilled? At flame out or once wort is below 160F?

2. Do they need to sit in the hot wort for a period of time before chilling? How long?

3. If you do put 1-3 ounces of hops in at flame out do you have to account for them increasing the IBU's of your recipe?
 
Well, as you noticed opinions vary on this. To answer #1, I"d say you have to decide for yourself. I can tell you what I do and what works for me, but that may not be what someone else likes.

If I'm making a 5 gallon batch, my hop stand will be about 10 minutes before I start chilling. BUT I recirculate while chilling, so it will take another 15 minutes before it gets to under 120 degrees or so. So it's about a 20-25 minute hop stand that begins at flame out.

For a 10 gallon batch, I do a very similar thing but I start chilling right away since it takes a lot longer for it to get below 180 with the recirculating.

They don't increase the IBUs in any measurable way, so you don't account for them in the IBUs, instead they can replace some of the late hops in the boil. Even if they do increase the IBUs somewhat, there is a lot more hops flavor and aroma so the perceived bitterness is lower and smoother anyway.
 
Yooper said:
Well, as you noticed opinions vary on this. To answer #1, I"d say you have to decide for yourself. I can tell you what I do and what works for me, but that may not be what someone else likes.

If I'm making a 5 gallon batch, my hop stand will be about 10 minutes before I start chilling. BUT I recirculate while chilling, so it will take another 15 minutes before it gets to under 120 degrees or so. So it's about a 20-25 minute hop stand that begins at flame out.

For a 10 gallon batch, I do a very similar thing but I start chilling right away since it takes a lot longer for it to get below 180 with the recirculating.

They don't increase the IBUs in any measurable way, so you don't account for them in the IBUs, instead they can replace some of the late hops in the boil. Even if they do increase the IBUs somewhat, there is a lot more hops flavor and aroma so the perceived bitterness is lower and smoother anyway.
Click to expand...

Yooper, you mention recirculating while chilling..... Do you mean you drain out of the kettle and pour back in the top, like a vourlof?
 
arborman said:
Yooper, you mention recirculating while chilling..... Do you mean you drain out of the kettle and pour back in the top, like a vourlof?
Click to expand...

No. I have a pump and a CFC chiller. I just run it back into the boil kettle, until the whole batch gets to 120 or less, and then the next pass goes into the fermenter.
 
Yooper said:
Well, as you noticed opinions vary on this. To answer #1, I"d say you have to decide for yourself. I can tell you what I do and what works for me, but that may not be what someone else likes.

If I'm making a 5 gallon batch, my hop stand will be about 10 minutes before I start chilling. BUT I recirculate while chilling, so it will take another 15 minutes before it gets to under 120 degrees or so. So it's about a 20-25 minute hop stand that begins at flame out.

For a 10 gallon batch, I do a very similar thing but I start chilling right away since it takes a lot longer for it to get below 180 with the recirculating.

They don't increase the IBUs in any measurable way, so you don't account for them in the IBUs, instead they can replace some of the late hops in the boil. Even if they do increase the IBUs somewhat, there is a lot more hops flavor and aroma so the perceived bitterness is lower and smoother anyway.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

Yea I was reading this thread...Seems there was a lot of disagreement about post boil additions adding IBU's. I tend to agree with you because I have done flame out additions before and didn't notice a difference in perceived bitterness of the same recipe I had done before with no post boil additions.


I plan to just toss in pellet hops at flame out and then start my chiller right away. I do 11 gallon batches with a 50' 1/2" chiller and it takes about 30 minutes to get down to 65F.

Is there any drawbacks to just tossing in pellets other than a little more trub?
 
dbrewski said:
This article just came out in BYO. It is a good overview. I was most interested in the evaluation of hops utilization..which I took to mean there is some modest transfer of bitterness. I just tried it last weekend, so my results are not yet in.

http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands
Click to expand...

Of note from that article:
Matt Brynildson of Firestone Walker Brewing Company says, "The fact that there is some isomerization (about 15% in whirlpool versus 35% in the kettle) of alpha acid means that not only hop aroma and hop flavor can be achieved, but also some bittering."
For Pelican Pub & Brewery's Kiwanda Cream Ale, brewmaster Darron Welch adds the beer's only hop addition at flameout. Welch gets about 25 IBUs from adding roughly 0.75 lbs./bbl (0.34 kg/bbl) of Mt. Hood hops at flameout then allowing a 30 minute whirlpool stage. This means that Darron is getting roughly 16% utilization on his 15 bbl system for a 1.049 specific gravity wort. As mentioned, in a homebrewers hop stand, the 5-gallon (19-L) kettle is going to cool much faster and therefore create lower utilization rates. Brad Smith, creator of the BeerSmith brewing calculator, gives this advice to homebrewers, "Something in the 10% range is not
a bad estimate if hops are added
near boiling and left in during the cool-down period."
From my own experience with extended hop stands in 11-gallon
(42-L) batches, a 10% utilization rate for whirlpool hops seems reasonable.
Click to expand...
 
Jayhem said:
Is there any drawbacks to just tossing in pellets other than a little more trub?
Click to expand...

My filtering system clogs easy if I just toss pellets in the kettle, so I put them in a paint strainer bag and tie a knot on top. Then I toss the bag in the wort.
 
I've had solid results adding at 160F then slowing the chiller down for effectively a 30min warm steep. Really delivers that resiny mouthfeel.
 
Yooper said:
No. I have a pump and a CFC chiller. I just run it back into the boil kettle, until the whole batch gets to 120 or less, and then the next pass goes into the fermenter.
Click to expand...

O wise one... what is the purpose of this process? Is it for hop utilization?
 
brewkinger said:
O wise one... what is the purpose of this process? Is it for hop utilization?
Click to expand...

It's to cool the wort. :D

I like cooling it all at once, uniformly, instead of having 180 degree wort in the boil kettle for a long time while sending chilled wort to the fermenter. I recirculate it so it all cools, then when it's 120 degrees or under, I send it to the fermenter through the chiller on the next pass. A 10 gallon batch would sit for a while at warm temperatures if I didn't recirculate the wort with my system.

I use a CFC, and it's a little small, so that's why I do it like that.
 
Yooper said:
It's to cool the wort. :D

Yeah, I grasp that concept. :D

Answers a question pertaining to CFC's that I had after watching a video.
The brewer ran his wort through the CFC a single time and his output was going right into his fermenter.

Are they that efficient?

It appeared as thought he slowed the flow of wort in and it took about 5-7 minutes for the process to complete.

Or... was the video deceiving and in fact he had to let the wort sit in the fermenter until it cooled to pitching temps?
Click to expand...
 
It would depend on the temperature of the cooling water and the size of the coil, so it may be possible (but unlikely) to cool in under 10 minutes with a single pass. My friend has a Therminator, and he cools quickly but that's different than a CFC. You can throttle down the output so it cools in one pass, but I felt that the rest of the wort was sitting at near boiling to do this so I recirculate (and use whirlpool hops at the same time) and it works really well for me.
 

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