Help with bitterness in multiple batches

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

32Brew

Active Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
44
Reaction score
4
Location
San Marcos
I’m new to brewing, and I have 3 batches under my belt (and one fermenting). Although I have hardly any practical experience, a knee surgery has kept me immobile, so I’ve read hundreds, if not thousands of posts on this great board to research. My problem is this: I have a reoccurring bitterness in my beers. The first batch was undrinkable, the second is barely tolerable. Now, the third batch, BM’s Centennial Blonde, tastes ok, BUT that same bitterness is still present. If this were my first batch I wouldn’t even sweat it, but after tasting this bitterness in the other batches, I’m hyper sensitive to it. (First batch was a brown ale that conditioned for 3 months with no improvement, and second batch is 2 months in with no improvement)

The only thing I can think of that these three batches have in common is the same water..either whole or in part. (I’ve bought new equipment, different LHBSs for ingredients, different techniques—extract, Partial mash, and AG) After my first batch, I researched my water and found out it is minerally and alkaline, so I’ve been diluting it with RO water. I also read extensively about water chemistry via Palmer, Dr A.J. Delange, and Kai from these boards to help with the profile.

Here’s my water profile for the Blonde after it’s been cut 50/50 with RO/tap, treated with ½ a Campden tab, and Lactic acid to get RA down
Ca – 32
Mg – 20
NA – 24
Cl – 28
SO4 – 20
RA – 21

I’ve added CaCl and Gypsum to this profile get my Calcium up to 55ppm and keep Cl/SO4 at “malty” to ensure my bitterness isn’t from SO4.

A few questions nipped in the bud....
-I keep sparge water below 170° (verified by two thermometers)
-pH of last mash was 5.3
-temp controlled at 68 for ferment

The bitterness is not the “medicinal” or “band-aid” flavor I’ve heard a lot of. It’s kinda an “earthy” bitterness. The amount of bitterness is proportionate to the amount of tap water used, so it seems to be the water. I know I could build straight RO water if I can’t get this taste nailed down, but I know many use their own water, and if possible, I’d like to do the same.

At this point, I’m asking for some suggestions on what might be the cause of my bitterness…I’m assuming it’s water related, but let me know if anything else comes to mind.

Thanks
 
It's definitely not sour. It's a different kind of bitter I haven't tasted before. I've been spraying everything that contacts the beer with Star San since after the 1st batch in hopes of thwarting a bacterial infection.
 
Make sure your water report actually is SO4. If it is Ward labs, they report it as SO4-S or something (many labs do this too). This SO4-S result is 1/3 of your actual SO4. If this is the case in your water, your starting Cl/S04 is actually 28/60. 60 is a good chunk of SO4, and adding gypsum will rocket you up. This could be where your bitterness is coming from.

Your water is pretty alkaline, do you acidify your sparge water? I'd try adding lactic or phosphoric acid to get your sparge water under a pH of 6.0, if it is not already.

Are you calculating IBUs correctly? My experience is that an IBU for you is different than an IBU for me, or whomever wrote a recipe. If your beers are too bitter, lower the IBUs.
 
As no alkalinity number is given I had to take a stab at the carbo content of the water and as there is uncertainty about the sulfate I tried it using both the as sulfate and as sulfur description. I was able to get a better balance with "as sulfur" though the RA is 81. If, OTOH, I uses as sulfate the RA is 122. Quite a bit of guesswork in here but as the as sulfate gives a more reasonable RA compared to what is posted I'm assuming that it is closer to the truth. This is 60 ppm sulfate which is enough to give you hops roughness. Wheter it's appropriate for style or not is immaterial if you don't like it. Cut the water 3:1 or 4:1 with DI and make the calcium back up with the chloride i.e. no gypsum. Try with that and if things get better then you know what the problem was and can continue on that basis.

"Earthy" bitterness suggest British cultivars. You might want to try different hops varieties. One of the reason the noble hops are called noble is because the bitterness is "fine". You might want to try one or more of them. And finally, of course, you can just pull back on the amount of hops and/or add them later in the boil.
 
I had a bitterness in my beers that I couldn't figure out, and as soon as I started charcoal filtering my water it went away. I assume it was chlorine or chloramine.
 
Sorry for not listing the alkalinity, which is 155 at this dilution...and I did add acid to my sparge water was well.

After reading my water report MANY times to make sure it's right, it lists SO4 as "sulfate." BUT as I've read, sometimes the water company misreports SO4 and SO4-S. Given what pkeeler said, it could be that my sulfates were mislabeled, and it could be closer to 60ppm at 50% dilution, which means the bitterness would be worse with gypsum added.

What clicked for me here, was when ajdelange mentioned that the earthy bitterness describes English hops. I know from drinking commercial craft beer what the English hops "earthiness" is supposed to taste like.

My first two batches were, in fact, English hopped. If the SO4 numbers were way off, like suggested, that would mean the earthiness would be magnified, hence a terrible "earthy" bitterness. With the subsequent batch, if my SO4 numbers were way off, even with American hops, an unnatural bitterness would still show up.

With my next batch, I'll use the higher number for SO4, no gypsum additions and see what that gets me......I hope I get it right because the Haus Pale Ale is up next!!
 
According to Palmer, Sulfate levels of up to 400 ppm could be acceptable depending on the style of beer.

I agree with sudsmcgee. I think your issue is likely chlorine/chloramine. Add campden tabs (1 tab treats 20 gallons) to all water used.

But I would also be aware that your water is alkaline and so I would be hesitant to do partial boils unless you acidify your top-off water.
 
That level of alkalinity is just about what I calculated assuming the sulfate is "as sulfate" and balances the profile very nicely. Interpreting the sulfate number "as Sulfur" would seriously imbalance the profile. Note that water authorities do not report sulfate in any way except as sulfate (AFAIK). The only organization that seems to report as sulfur is Ward Labs. So I think we are safe in assuming the actual sulfate is 20 mg/L.This is not excessive for anything except the most delicate nobly hopped lagers but I still think you should try at an even higher dilution than your 1:1. Not that you necessarily need to do as I do but in the hopes than an example may be beneficial I cut my water which is at 27 ppm sulfate with 9 parts of RO so that the sulfate is 2.7. And I do it to get the sulfate down to that level.
 
Sorry, missed that you already use campden. I guess that rules that out as long as all of your water is treated.

But - correct me if I'm wrong... mg/L is a close equivalent of ppm and you are talking about tap water with 40 ppm of SO4. Unless you are trying to emulate Pilsner Urquell, I can't see how this would be an issue. Granted a blonde is fairly light, but still...

BTW, I am happy to be corrected but I'm really not following the need to dilute solely on the basis of SO4 of 40.
 
Some people do not like harsh hop bitterness. In general, a brewers in Germany are apparently of the opinion that a good chloride to sulfate ratio is infinite i.e. no sulfate (though of course many German beers are brewed with a goodly amount). I suspect that the original poster is one of those people. The first thing to suspect when one has harsh hops is that the water may contain more sulfate than is commensurate with hops which are not rough. To see if this is the case I recommend brewing with as little sulfate as possible. If the bitterness is still over the top then one needs to look beyond sulfate i.e. to which cultivar has been selected and amounts and times. IOW sulfate is not the whole story but it can be a big part of it.

The common perception that chloride to sulfate ratio is a design parameter for beers is, IMO, a cruel hoax. They are not antipodal. One cannot fix high sulfate by adding more chloride. He needs to remove the sulfate and dilution is the easiest way to do that.
 
Now to clarify, the bitterness I'm tasting is not the same as a hop bitterness from a beer that's suppossed to be hoppy. the last 3 beers I've had the problem with have all been under 40 IBUs. I know (and love) the taste of APAs and IPAs, so a robust hop flavor is welcome with that style.

The bitterness in the first two batches is so bad that i can't finish one beer. When I said it is earthy, and compared it to possibly English hops, I mean in the earth tone only. There isn't any hops type bitterness. Earthy is just the best adjective I can describe it by. Actually, I can't even taste any hops flavor because the bitterness is too strong.

Again, the only significant thing these batches have in common is water, and the bitterness has been proportianate to the increasing dilutuon I'm trying. My water tastes fine, but I'm just wondering if there is something I have been missing.

From your help and comments, am I right in saying it seems I can rule out Sulfate as a cause of the bitterness, since even at 3x the rate, the taste would still be manageable?
 
I think you can rule out sulfate because it is clearly at 20 mg/L which should not be a problem. At 3X it would be a problem for some beers but we have established that you don't have 3X.

Sulfate acting with hops is the usual culprit when water is responsible but magnesium can also be a source of bitterness. If yours is at 20 mg/L with a 1:1 dilution that implies 40 in the source and that's quite a bit. I'd think at 20 it would be under control but perhaps you are hypersensitive. What do other drinkers have to say about these beers? Bicarbonate also sometimes gets blamed for the bitterness.

But I'd say the evidence is pretty clear: if the unpleasantry is proportional to the amount of tap water you are using then use as little of it as possible i.e. brew with RO water. You should at least do that once as an experiment to see if it makes your problem go away. Be sure to supplement calcium following the guidelines in the Primer in the Stickies. If you still have this problem with RO water then you will know it is the way you are handling the hops that is to blame and can attack on that front.
 
I have a thought, and maybe its not an issue, but could this bitterness be attributable to yeast bite?
 
Yes, it definitely could. Yeast cells attract the bittering principal in hops to their cell surfaces. Yeast from a hoppy beer is very bitter. If you are familiar with the Australian Vegemite or the British Marmite you will know what I am talking about. Now, of course, if the taste is there in beer which has dropped clear that can't be the cause.
 
I thought it might be yeast bite too, so this last batch, I cold crashed it for 2 days to try to drop the yeast out. It's clear as a bell (and taking a little longer to fully carb), but it still has a bit of the bitterness as well.
 
What do other drinkers have to say about these beers? Bicarbonate also sometimes gets blamed for the bitterness.

Friends/family who have tasted each progressive beer have also said it was "bitter" But, they are all BMC drinkers, so they couldn't really be more helpful than that.

Can you help clarify this: doesn't an acid addition help to bring down the bicarbinate's affect on the water? At a level of 155, shouldn't that still be acceptable in a blonde, or would that amount be noticable? I know I have hard water, so I've used lactic acid in this last batch to bring it down.
 
Back
Top