Apple Cider into Wine problem

Hoping someone can help.

Using this recipe for Apple Wine
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f79/apple-403770/

Problem is I can get the fermentation to get going.
OG is 1.090 at present.

Used EC-118 yeast. Getting on a week and a half since adding yeast and i get nothing in the airlock.

Can I add more yeast? Is there a preferred way to get it going before I lose it all?

Have you checked the gravity to make sure fermentation has not started? I've had several beers ferment all the way without a bubble. Also, are you sure that the cider you used had no preservatives?

If the sg is still unchanged at 1.090 after a week then no fermentaion has happened. Your yeast may be bad, but wild yeast probely would have taken over by now if conditions were good.
Take the cover off and stirr it vigrously for several minutes. Yeast needs air to work! Leave cover and airlock OFF, cover with a towel or tee shirt. Give it 24h and recheck. Temps matter as well. If the must is too cold nothing will happen, or will go very slowly. 65-80f is the temp range to aim for.
If stirring and temps do not work make a rip roaring yeast starter and add that. That will overcome any perservatives that may be present, or over use of campton.
Good luck!

Did the juice or cider you started with have any preservatives?

I'm unsure of the exact name but the label said >0.1% {sodium bicarb or whatever the common preservative is}

Can someone give me a good step by step of how to make a "rip roaring yeast starter"? Thanks!
OG is unchanged, I highly suspect its the preservatives killing the yeast. Before adding the new batch of yeast I will stir it up well.

dstelley said:

I'm unsure of the exact name but the label said >0.1% {sodium bicarb or whatever the common preservative is}

Can someone give me a good step by step of how to make a "rip roaring yeast starter"? Thanks!
OG is unchanged, I highly suspect its the preservatives killing the yeast. Before adding the new batch of yeast I will stir it up well.

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If it's "sodium benzoate", it won't ferment. If it's potassium sorbate, it probably won't- but I have heard of a couple people making the big yeast starter to overcome it. It normally wouldn't be possible, though.

It's important to avoid apple juice with preservatives.

jensmith said:

If the sg is still unchanged at 1.090 after a week then no fermentaion has happened. Your yeast may be bad, but wild yeast probely would have taken over by now if conditions were good.
Take the cover off and stirr it vigrously for several minutes. Yeast needs air to work! Leave cover and airlock OFF, cover with a towel or tee shirt. Give it 24h and recheck. Temps matter as well. If the must is too cold nothing will happen, or will go very slowly. 65-80f is the temp range to aim for.
If stirring and temps do not work make a rip roaring yeast starter and add that. That will overcome any perservatives that may be present, or over use of campton.
Good luck!

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RED: this is kind of a misnomer, yeast are able to function with or WITHOUT oxygen. However they do work a lot quicker it seems when they have a well aerated wort to work in especially the more finicky yeast strains. This leads me to lean closer to the preservatives in the cider, as mentioned by another person, or temperature issues. try keeping your cider towards the high end of the recommended temperature range until fermentation has begun.

example: ale yeast can ferment in a temperature range of 65f-75f i usually see fast starts when properly aerating and keeping the yeast nice and toasty (72ish) until they start working, then drop the temperature down to where
I want to ferment at.

Yooper said:

If it's "sodium benzoate", it won't ferment. If it's potassium sorbate, it probably won't- but I have heard of a couple people making the big yeast starter to overcome it. It normally wouldn't be possible, though.

It's important to avoid apple juice with preservatives.

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yeah usually you want to look for a base cider with out the bad words on the label "sodium-blah blah blah" or "potassium blah blah"

but you can be safe if you look for "NO PRESERVATIVES" on the label. Even pasteurized cider works well. just as long as it says: "NO PRESERVATIVES". This way you know your safe. Shopping for cider from a local orchard if available or at an organic section of the grocery store will save you some time reading labels, but keep in mind that some orchards, despite the ma and pa feel and neat little glass jug they cell their cider in will dose it with those nasty chemicals that stop us from making delicious alcohol. :cross:

But the number one way you can be sure would be to make sure the cider says: "NO PRESERVATIVES"

Good luck next time man,

Hoptimistic said:

RED: this is kind of a misnomer, yeast are able to function with or WITHOUT oxygen. However they do work a lot quicker it seems when they have a well aerated wort to work in especially the more finicky yeast strains. This leads me to lean closer to the preservatives in the cider, as mentioned by another person, or temperature issues. try keeping your cider towards the high end of the recommended temperature range until fermentation has begun.

example: ale yeast can ferment in a temperature range of 65f-75f i usually see fast starts when properly aerating and keeping the yeast nice and toasty (72ish) until they start working, then drop the temperature down to where
I want to ferment at.

Click to expand...

Horrible info IMO...

Oxygen is what the yeast use to create phenols and esters. The FLAVOR of the yeast it self. That's why when you overpitch you get a very bland beer. Or when you don't oxygenate your left with stressed yeast which will throw off diacetyl and DMS

Fermenting "hot" is also a horrible idea. This is when fusel alcohols are produced, from once again stressing the yeast.
Starting high and lowering is ALSO shocking the yeast forcing them to go dormant, the most important part of fermenting is the "growth" phase when these flavors are created. Starting hot your already in the red, reducing temp after 60% of fermentation will do nothing but put the yeast to sleep.

I have fermented cider perserved with potasium sorbate with no problem. Not shure about the patasium Benzo??(sp?) perservative. Have we not all had one batch, or more, referment after stabalizing with the correct dossage of chemicals? Yeast will do its thing regardless of obstacals some days!

There are plenty of postings, maybe a sticky even, of making a yeast starter. Just do a search and follow the method you understand best.
Basically, take warm water, 2-3 cups, a couple tabelspoons of suger and a packet of yeast. Dump them together and cover with a cloth. The yeast with rehydrate and start to eat the suger. Bubbels will form. This is now fermenting, and is a yeast starter. To make it a rip roaring yeast starter add fresh juice to this. ( you can use juice instead of water to start) Also a bit more suger and some nutriants. Make it bigger in volume and get the yeast fermenting vigerously, it will look like it is boiling, or at least a hard simmer. Keep the starter warm. In the sevendies. You can add your non fermenting must to it 1/4 cup at a time to get the yeast alcamated to where it will be working from now on. I am too lazy for this step, but for super stuborn wines this may help.
Once the yeast starter is bubbeling along you can add it to the must. Grape juice is great for making a starter. Wine yeast likes grapes best.

I believe I have it going again. At least I hope!
In short this is what I did. Bought 2 half gallons of 100% apple juice (no preservatives...)
made a starter yeast of EC-118, warm water, sugar and a wee bit of yeast nutrient.
Once that was going I mixed it with a pint of the juice (warmed to 90F). That took off quick! Then I combined the rest of the 1/2 gallon and created a half gallon of nicely bubbling "stuff".
I added the other half gallon of juice to the cider and stirred like crazy. 1 day later I put it all together...
Let that simmer for a couple three days (6 gallons now in the primary bucket). I then racked the top 5 gallons into a 5 gallon carboy and airlocked it. Its been bubbling nicely since. I figure I'll ignore it for a month and see what the sg is.

Apple cider that is pasteurized is no more than apple juice. That is what grocery stores sell this time of the year but call it apple cider. Get cider from a cider mill and it will be cloudy and contain no preservatives. This is what is used to make wine.

Sammyk said:

Apple cider that is pasteurized is no more than apple juice. That is what grocery stores sell this time of the year but call it apple cider. Get cider from a cider mill and it will be cloudy and contain no preservatives. This is what is used to make wine.

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That's not right. Almost all cider sold to the public is pasteurized, due to safety and liability issues. UV pasteurization does not affect the quality or fermentability of the cider.

Most cider mills do not add preservatives. A lot of grocery store stuff has preservatives.

I only looked and one brand of grocery apple cider and it did contain preservatives. So yes, I could be wrong.

While preservative free is preferred you may not always find it. It goes back to 'read your labels and know the additives'.
It may be the preservatives are ascorbic acid, potassium metabisulphite and sorbate--you can work with those.

I have never had an issue fermenting any grocery store product which had sorbate added as a preservative BUT benzoate is avoided at all costs. If you accidentally start a ferment with benzoate on board you can usually overcome it by making a HUGE volume of starter and keep your fingers crossed that it keeps on trucking and does not stall. I have read that one can simmer benzoate riddled products to weaken the bond prior to fermentation.

Now juice vs cider topic...it is quite simple...apple juice is filtered so you have a clear, visually appealing end product; while cider is raw and unfiltered. Apple juice is typically pasteurized by heat or UV light, though if your state allows unpasteurized apple cider you may find unpasteurized apple juice. Cider mills must follow the law when it comes to use of preservatives and pasteurization. Many mills add k-meta during the press--- do not just ask if they add preservatives, ask if they add anything at all. As we have learned from wine juice buckets, the addition of k-meta is not always on the label, you must ask. http://www.mass.gov/agr/massgrown/cider_juice_difference.htm