This is my "different" brewing set up, hope it works!

After searching around, I only found people asking questions about whether or not the blichmann therminator will work as a heat exchanger for a herms system so im going to try it...and i like doing things differently I guess. So i have 1 pump circulating the wort constantly, and the other pump will pump heated water through the heat exchanger when the wort temp gets down to a certain point...im not sure what temp im going to have the hot water at for adding heat to the wort, but the plan is to have 1 pump constantly recirculating the wort, and one pump for the hot water into the thermintor turn on and off as needed

Just got by BCS-460 in yesterday, ordered 2 brew-magic universal kettles today, and my brew-magic fermentor should be here anyday!

I havent seen anyone else doing this so i thought id just try it out and let anyone who was wondering know how it works out...ill post some pictures in just a bit...

ok, i think im a total idiot, how do i post pictures? ha sorry

heat exchangers only care that there a temp difference, not which way the gradient is. should be just fine, just need to experiment on what temperature you need. might help to rig a thermometer into the outlet side of both fluids, to see what kind of transfer you're getting. if you aren't getting the heat out of the heating water it might help to be able to restrict the hot water flow, without starving the pump. the longer the water stays in the therminator, the more heat will be transferred to the wort. sounds like a good idea though, looking forward to updates and pics.

thanks, many people have said that the therminator clogs easily, so i am going to vorlauf for 5 to 10 minutes or until the wort is clear, then turn off the wort pump and route the wort back through the HE, then turn the pump back on

I am thinking that the water used to heat the wort wont have to be extremely precise, because when the wort gets to the desired temp, the pump will shut off and stop the flow of the heating water through the HE, and will stop any further heating (even though the wort is continuously flowing)...when the temp gets a degree or two below the desired temp, the pump will turn back on and send the heating water back through the HE again untill it the wort raises back up a couple degrees to the desired temp...thats the plan at least! I should be able to give it a test try as soon as my SSR's come in (should be a few days hopefully)

worst case senario, i use the therminator for cooling only and i add a copper coil for a HE

wood mock up


steel frame

inlets, pumps, and therminator
http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac114/HoosierbillyBrew/Brewing/steel3.jpg?t=1260909910
aluminum pots will be replaced by 2 of the brewmagic universal kegs

going to mount the 2 smaller burners tomorrow (1 will be on each side), 3 burners total

also, everything that touches water, wort, or beer that will be consumed is SS or the silicone hoses (brass fittings on the hot water for the HE, but that water will not be consumed and is a separate system), but my new temp probes have a brass fitting, so i guess i will have a little brass but i think ill be ok (i dont really want to have any brass or copper in the system, but lets not go there haha)...and no more plastic buckets for me (i sure got my use out of them though) as soon as i get my brew-magic fermentor in (anyday now)

i am also slightly concerned about the pump, with the different inlets it seems as though the pump could possibly have issues with getting primed, but all three lines going into the inlet will always be filled with some type of liquid (hot water or wort) and the two vessels that arent being pumped from will have the valves closed at the tanks so no (or minimal) air should be able to make it to the pump...so that was one of my other concerns but i think that should be ok

Neat idea but unless you have the hot water presurized you're not going to be able to get the wort upto a boil. You temperature delta between the wort and the hot water won't be large enough for effective heat transfer. Something to think about. You need superheated water (steam) to transfer the heat into your wort and those open top kettles aren't going to generate any pressure.

i think he was planning on the therminator for mashing temps. i hope so anyway, i just thought that the middle kettle with the banjo burner would do the boiling. now that theres pics, HOLY CRAP you have a lot to work with there. i'm a little jealous, i just wished for two ss kettles and a pump, i have a little equipment envy now.

The HE is only for maintaining mash temps.

What are the two vessels on the bottom level for? Is that where you will ferment?

I would hold the mash temp within one degree. Else, why have a control system? I can maintain a 3º band with nothing but a blanket over my mash tun.

Cool looking system!

yep, HE is only for maintaining mash temps, banjo is for heating water before adding the grain and also for boiling

-right now i was needing to sparge into 3 or 4 different aluminum pots then lifting them up and pouring them (hot) into the boil pot (a LOOOT of aeration, and a big PITA), i was previously brewing with just 1 burner (and would have to pull the full 20 gal blichmann off the burner (not safe) and heat up sparge water, drain the mash, add sparge water, mix, and drain again, then clean out the blichmann and pour all 3 or 4 aluminum pots of wort back into the blichman for the boil)...doesnt that sound fun!

there will be no lifting or moving of full vessels, or pouring or splashing of any liquids except for when they are goin into the fermentor (at least until i figure out how i want to incorporate my aeration stone without pumping my wort over the good ol' PVC tubing (haha im anti plastic if you cannot tell)

and thanks for all the input and ideas guys!

right burner

center burner

left burner

back side

front side


after the first brew or two (to make sure everything works and is set up how i want it) im going to clean it up a bit and have it powder coated

You've got what looks like about a foot of head pressure above each of those pumps, plus whatever distance from the kettle outlets to the top of the liquid in each kettle? You should be fine for priming the pumps. Just make sure you have all of your liquid in the source kettles before you start the pumps. And give it about five seconds after you open all your valves before firing up the pumps. That should give them plenty of time to shake out most of the air bubbles, and the rest will get shoved through and out within a few seconds of startup.

Looks good. You shouldn't have any issues with priming.

What I am concerned about is your lack of control on the pumps. Right now it looks like you've got the outlets directly connected to the heat exchanger, with no valves of any kind except before the pumps. Am I correct in assuming that? Because if that is the case, you really shouldn't use valves before the pumps to control the flow rate. The pump runs at a constant speed, so if the inlet flow falls behind the outlet flow, you can get a cavitation situation which can damage the pump. This is not something you want. I suggest removing the short sections of silicone hose between the pumps and the heat exchanger and replacing them with stainless steel ball valves. That way you can control your outlet flow rates to get the delta-T that you want across your heat exchanger. You also won't need to worry about destroying your pump heads.

Just my $0.02.

What kind of separation medium are you using in the tun? I'd be concerned about a false bottom because they let quite a bit of husk through and that's not a good idea for a plate exchanger. I just don't see the benefit of this over a Herms coil in the HLT. What you're adding is potential for clogging the exchanger, introducing lactobacillus to what will eventually be a cold wort path, and having to run an extra pump during the mash. Maybe I'm not seeing some benefit that exists.

First look though of your pictures i didn't see the words "wood mock up" but i did see that burner sitting on the 2x2 ! Had me a little worried for a second...

Recirc water temperature: It definitely needs to be higher than the mash temperature, but how much higher depends on the heat losses of the mash tun, the heat exchanger and flow rates. I would start out with the recirc water no more than 168F. If that does the trick, you can use it for sparging as well.

thanks shadowmage36, i wasnt planning on controling the pumps with the valves on there the way they are now, but you convinced me, and i have a couple extra ball valves laying around so i am goin to put one in there after the pump for control (and this will also give me a place to put a 'wort out' temp sensor), thanks again

also, im using the good ol' blichmann false bottom, i am going to bypass the HE and run the wort right into the kettle until it runs clear, then use the HE to maintain temp, and the HE wont be used when sparging/lautering, thanks for the concerns

-probably the only benefit of this would be that it will answer my question of will this work haha, and i dont realy feel like making a herms coil right now, even though im sure its not too difficult

-again, if it doesnt work well, ill just do it the conventional way

-fermentor came in this morning....absolutely beautiful...SS kegs looks much better than my 6 plastic buckets and small aluminum pots, if these are in good enough condition they will be going to a fellow HBers dad that is interested in the hobby...kettles should be in anyday...THANK GOODNESS FOR STUDENT LOANS (and not using them for books)

you can also find heat exchangers on the internet( if you're looking to save money). i got mine from dudadiesal.

ftlstrings said:

First look though of your pictures i didn't see the words "wood mock up" but i did see that burner sitting on the 2x2 ! Had me a little worried for a second...

Click to expand...

HAHA my brother said "why are you going to make it out of steel" so i pointed out the banjo and he said "SO, let it eat! (jokingly)"

as for the recirc water, ill just have to kind of test that out...i wasnt thinking any more than 5* above mash temp to maintain (HE is only used to maintain mash temp, not to actually heat the water from the sink)...with the recirc water much higher than what is needed i fear it might over heat the mash, and by the time that wort from the HE (say maybe 160 or 165 if the recirc water was 170) gets to the temp sensor and the pump shuts off there would be a lot of wort above the temp sensor that is way too hot and will heat the mash up too high by the time it makes it all the way through to the bottom and stabilizes, so i was planning to keep the recirc water temp a little closer to the mash temp (i hope that makes sense, it sounds confusing)

i will have the sparge water ready on the left burner come time so i wouldnt need the recirc water for that, even though it is a little waste of hot water

Yeah, for pumps that aren't self-priming, you really don't want any restrictions on the inlet flows. And march pumps (from what I've seen) really don't have any means of controlling their speed, so you have to control the flow out using valves after the pump. I work for a chemical company, and for the most part we use pumps that either self-prime or are variable-speed, so this isn't such a problem for us. In the world of homebrewing, however, we're not so lucky as to have access to high-temperature gear-driven metering pumps in a reasonable price range (even our pilot-scale metering pumps are a few hundred dollars a piece here at the plant!). So we have to make do with what we've got.

Also, you raise a very valid point about gaining a spot for a thermocouple/thermometer to measure wort and water temperatures. Definitely a good idea if you're thinking of ever going to computer control!

I saw the first pics too with the wood 2x2s and I was ready to start a pool on how long until combustion. You need to give your brother a hard time for everyone at homebrewtalk!

haha i do give him a hard time, but he helps me with some of my motorcycle related issues that arise (although he strongly believed my clutch cable was too loose and he proceeded to tighten it up, then he told me my bike was a piece of **** and needed a new clutch because it couldnt pull wheelies like it used to and i should get another bike, however after i adjusted the cable back to where it should be it pulled wheelies just fine and rode like a champ, and he was pissed because my bike was faster and much less expensive than his (at least thats what i told him) haha, so we are even, we all have idiot moments

sorry, back to the topic...i picked up some SS parts (tee, nipples, bushings...) today and it will actually work out very well i think, i have the parts layed out and will tighten them together and bolt the new valve/temp assembly to the frame with the hose lay-out (you'll see) and post some pics of it tomorrow (now today i guess)...thanks again for the input, much appreciated!...after i get the plumbing tightened up i just need my keggles to arrive (anyday) then its time to fire it up

-also i will be utilizing the BCS-460 for the temps and running the motors, the gas (shouldn't need too much adjusting) and the valves will be controlled by me for right now untill i get a few brews under my belt on this new set up and feel comfortable with it...then i will see what it takes to get all solenoid valves including for gas...next semesters loan money should be in at the end of this month so that may be for the solenoids (good thing i have most of the equipment already)

-my fingers now hurt, sorry for the length

nice looking rig, where did you get your steel from?

Thanks, I got my steel from a place in Anderson, IN called Mofab...15 bucks for a 12 footer of 1 1/2 in square tubing can't remember the gauge, 14 maybe

sorry these are kind of blurry for some reason

close up of the flow control valve + temp


bypassing the HE


HE to control valve

kettles came in, all i need now is my solid state relays to come in and its brew time
(need one more length of hose)




and the new fermentor...

okay, so my relays finally came in today (didnt realize i ordered them from germany) and i need to make sure that the way i plan to wire these things up is safe and alright...i have two relays, each one will control one pump...i plan on wiring up 2 GFCI outlets for the pumps like the picture shows using 14 awg...i was just going to have what this picture shows but times two (each pump will have its own extension cord, SSR, and GFCI outlet that will be plugged into the outlet on my porch or garage)

The MAIN question i have is do i need to somehow ground the march pumps to my steel frame (remember they are bolted to the frame and they will be plugged into the GFCI outlets that are not attached to the frame, just be sitting on the ground in back of the brew unit)

-i already read the 'electrical primer for brewers' a couple times and this seemed to be more geared toward 220V systems using electric heating elements

-i just want to make sure my set up is safe

thanks again for all input!

well ive brewed a couple times and it works great. The water pump kicks on for a few minutes about every 10 minutes or so and keeps the mash right around set point without too much deviation. Therminator never clogged up and the wort flows through it with no problems. The only issue i have had was with chilling the wort on its trip the the fermenter. Probly because for some reason i never whirlpool, but i recently got the hopstopper which helped on the last brew but still not great (still didnt whirlpool and wait) and more recently got the hoprocket because the last brew was too light on the flavoring/aroma additions, this thing is awesome....i will try putting the hop rocket in line between kettle and therminater with either leaf hops or rice hulls or both to filter out pellet hop gunk...im sure this, along with actually giving it a spin and waiting a bit will work just fine...i was also thinking about instead of the hoprocket, send the wort to an empty keggle with a tube-shaped SS screen that i have that screws on the inside of the keggle (so it can be used as a mash tun) and rice hulls in the bottom to filter the wort before going to the chiller...
im trying to figure what to get to upgrade to 1.5 bbl capacity, i think i want to go with stout tanks for the vessels and fermenter, but still havent completely decided

It's been over a year between your posts; has the setup changed much and how many batches have you run through this system? It looks great.

Thanks! It hasn't changed much I don't think, but i have a keggle instead of the aluminum pot and i used the heating water as sparge water now (not sure if i did that originally), I will post some new pics and a video if I can figure it out when i get home later tonight
I think ive done 3 or 4 brews or so on it, been struggling to find time with school and all

looks like i added some valves since the last pics on here, added them so i dont have to disconnect/connect hot hoses in order to bypass the HE for vorlauf...

video of the start the mash

Bobby_M said:

What kind of separation medium are you using in the tun? I'd be concerned about a false bottom because they let quite a bit of husk through and that's not a good idea for a plate exchanger. I just don't see the benefit of this over a Herms coil in the HLT. What you're adding is potential for clogging the exchanger, introducing lactobacillus to what will eventually be a cold wort path, and having to run an extra pump during the mash. Maybe I'm not seeing some benefit that exists.

Click to expand...

What are you using as a separation medium in your mashtun? I dont think I have ever seen it? What do you think is the ideal device (for a false bottom) for a keggle mashtun?

sorry, just saw the last comment, im using the blichmann false bottom...im very close to getting my 2bbl equipment in...getting all the pieces together to be ready for the arrival of of my stout tanks 40 gal hlt, 65 mash tun, 75 kettle, and 80 gal conical...designing the brew stands now and ive had a steady flow of parts coming in

layout of brewstand with burners for 75 gal kettle, im thinking this should be sufficient...

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Careful dude, you're fvcking around with the space time continuum there.

well i have all the stands made...this is the one for the BK



also finished up my pumping/hopping/filtering/cooling unit...i think it should work, we will see on friday hopefully...