Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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Thanks CSI - I plan on brewing this in the very near future. I'd like to do another quad using the cake. Do you have any comments on one of the other great dark strong recipes you've done using the same yeast strain? Perhaps the Rochefort or?

For the knockout hops, I usually kill the heat, add the hops, stir like mad (15g keggle), cover the kettle, and walk away for a while. This gives me time to clean while the wort drops temperature. Using a palte chiller, the cooler the wort the better. Living in Las Vegas, the plate chiller cools the wort down to approximately 80 degrees.
 
You want to pitch at 65f, and then let it raise up. Blankets work pretty good if you are doing an ambient ferment in your house in the winter time, just check it for accuracy before you forget about it. You don't want this ferment to get too hot (keep it under 83)
 
ultravista said:
Thanks CSI - I plan on brewing this in the very near future. I'd like to do another quad using the cake. Do you have any comments on one of the other great dark strong recipes you've done using the same yeast strain? Perhaps the Rochefort or?

For the knockout hops, I usually kill the heat, add the hops, stir like mad (15g keggle), cover the kettle, and walk away for a while. This gives me time to clean while the wort drops temperature. Using a palte chiller, the cooler the wort the better. Living in Las Vegas, the plate chiller cools the wort down to approximately 80 degrees.
Click to expand...

My pleasure. Tall_Yotie was working with our senior partner on a couple of Pannepot recipes but our company has become insanely busy so I've taken all the side-line brew trials as well. We shifted from the Pannepot OFA to the Gran Reserva. It's every bit as chellenging as a Westy 12 but worth the effort...especially if barrel aged in used Chardonnay oak (French white oak, not US white oak). US white oak is too earthy.
 
@ pixelhussar

We brewed this beer yesterday. We couldn't get our hands on the real syrup, so we made some of our own. I think it was pretty nice. it smelled of chocolate, figs, honey, dark fruit, leather and maybe apricots.

I used 420 g of plain sucrose (beet) and 180 g of jaggery, 3 tsp of yeast nutrient and 3 tsp of lemon juice. I boiled the sugars with 1,5 dl water at medium heath up to 125 degrees C and then added 1,5 dl water. Then heated to 115 C and added some water. The whole process took about an our.

If you decide to make your own syrup, be cautious about not heating the sugar too quickly or to too high temps. I did one batch that I had to throw away that I heated to 143 C. It tasted of burnt sugar...
 
wow, saq, you cease to amaze me. This looks awesome and I need to delve into the Belgium world and this looks mighty fitting. So in the first few pages you seemed to prefer the old style, 2 malts, protein rest, decoct etc... but I see lately, you are doing the new world several malts, single infusion etc....

What is the lastest oh great master of the saccharomyces
 
The perfect quad recipe is an ideal, something to be striving for. Different ingredients all vary the angles on this beer to bring about different nuances. Try them all and figure out what you like best.
That being said single infusion should be 149 tops, you need maximum fermentability.
 
saq said:
The perfect quad recipe is an ideal, something to be striving for. Different ingredients all vary the angles on this beer to bring about different nuances. Try them all and figure out what you like best.
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X2!

I started with the standard old world recipe and quickly began tinkering with the recipe from brew to brew. Now I'm brewing it with Legacy hops decoction temp raise, and closer to 40ibus. Sometimes I add a touch of acidulated malt too.

For me anymore it's about what I want not what another brewery makes.
 
saq - do you still recommend mashing 8 ounces of biscuit for the old world if doing the single infusion mash?
 
I have been wanting to try this for a while. I am going to use Ecy09 instead to see what kind or yeast profile I get out of it. Thanks for sharing the wealth, saq!
 
saq said:
There is no table sugar in this beer or any variants posted in here and it is not mentioned anywhere in this thread. What is in this beer is dark candi syrup, 3lbs of it. Without the dark candi syrup you are not making anything approaching a Belgian Quadrupel, much less this particular beer.
Its like trying to make an Imperial IPA but taking out the hops, its just not going to work.
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Okay, I didn't want to read through ALL 70+ pages of this, but I have to ask:

Isn't a candi syrup just a non-hardened candi sugar?... If you make your own, it's what, 800% less cost? Has anyone tried this using the method shown here: http://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/how-to-make-belgian-candi-sugar/?

Or a similar method?
 
CSI said:
We follow BLAM as a foundation for most recipes but a single infusion will also work. Just remove the pep/pro rest and decoction step and infuse for 90 minutes. You can vary the temp based on your preference for mouth-feel.[/QUOTE]

To confirm ...

Variation 17a states:
Protein rest: 122F / 25 minutes
Decoction: 156F / 90 minutes
Mashout: 170F / 10 minutes

You're stating to simply forego the protein rest at 122F and decoction at 156F and replace those two with a single infusion at 149F for 90 minutes?
Click to expand...
 
ultravista said:
CSI said:
We follow BLAM as a foundation for most recipes but a single infusion will also work. Just remove the pep/pro rest and decoction step and infuse for 90 minutes. You can vary the temp based on your preference for mouth-feel.[/QUOTE]

To confirm ...

Variation 17a states:
Protein rest: 122F / 25 minutes
Decoction: 156F / 90 minutes
Mashout: 170F / 10 minutes

You're stating to simply forego the protein rest at 122F and decoction at 156F and replace those two with a single infusion at 149F for 90 minutes?
Click to expand...

In saq's defense he is recommending the surest way of hitting FG using a low mash / high fermentability. As equipment and method grow more advanced so will the ale....decoction, upping mash temps, etc.
Click to expand...
 
JordanThomas said:
What's the difference? Honestly. I know I'd have to taste them side-by-side to really tell, but don't they use the same ingredients and process?
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There are immense differences, and all in the most important part, flavor. Buy some and taste it.
 
I'm all about improvising, but when it comes to a recipe like this is really pays to use the highest possible quality ingredients. I know that you can make a passable quality syrup at home, but it will pale in comparison to high quality commercial ingredients.
 
saq said:
There are immense differences, and all in the most important part, flavor. Buy some and taste it.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'll just make some invert sugar on my own and if I don't like the results, then try with syrup. I don't see the point in brewing an already expensive batch with $15 of sugar if $1.00 worth of homemade could possibly produce the same or similar results...

Saq, have you ever made your own invert candi sugar and brewed with it?
 
Invert sugar is clear and provides no flavor, theres also no point in making it. If you want to use white sugar in a recipe where it is appropriate (like a tripel) just dump it into the boil. It is 100% absolutely not appropriate in a quad.

Dark candi syrup is heavily caramelized and contributes towards NEARLY ALL of this beer styles flavor and color. You get heavy dark chocolate, candied cherry, caramel and other tasty things that you simply wont get anywhere else.

I have tried making Dark Candi Syrup at home and it ends up nowhere even in the same universe as the stuff that is made by the pros, and a lot of that is due to things you don't have available at home. I made a small batch of dubbel with some stuff I made at home and the beer was pretty bad in my flavor quality standards.

This thread is not a thread about making your own dark candi syrup at home nor discussing the merits of it. This is a thread about my quad recipes where the good dark candi syrups provided by CSI or DCI are required ingredients.
 
Jordan,

I've made 3 beers with CSI's candy syrup. It is a difference maker. Expensive? Yep. Save up until you can do this right. It will be worth it. Save the poor mans recipe for skeeter pee.

Respectably,

Edit:

CSI,

Don't take this as an invitation to raise your prices.: )
 
This is my feelings on the syrup. They make it professionally with specified pH and special conditions using what I assume are more pure ingredients to aid in the color change and darkening. So if I have to spend $15 on a single batch to make two cases or a little more of a beer style that commercially sells for $12+ a bottle then I'm still way ahead making it on my own. Sure it's not as cheap as making a 4.5% blonde but when you consider a single case of Chimay blue sells for $90 in the US, then I don't feel guilty ONE bit paying $5-$6 for the sugar. You're paying for the equipment and the labor to produce the syrup not the ingredient costs really.
 
To brew this with some homemade syrup would be like the episode of Pawn Stars where they restored the Shelby from a shell and then put Pleather seats in it to save a buck. Why compromise even a little bit on quality?
 
saq said:
Invert sugar is clear and provides no flavor, theres also no point in making it. If you want to use white sugar in a recipe where it is appropriate (like a tripel) just dump it into the boil. It is 100% absolutely not appropriate in a quad.

Dark candi syrup is heavily caramelized and contributes towards NEARLY ALL of this beer styles flavor and color. You get heavy dark chocolate, candied cherry, caramel and other tasty things that you simply wont get anywhere else.

I have tried making Dark Candi Syrup at home and it ends up nowhere even in the same universe as the stuff that is made by the pros, and a lot of that is due to things you don't have available at home. I made a small batch of dubbel with some stuff I made at home and the beer was pretty bad in my flavor quality standards.

This thread is not a thread about making your own dark candi syrup at home nor discussing the merits of it. This is a thread about my quad recipes where the good dark candi syrups provided by CSI or DCI are required ingredients.
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Once you raise the temp to 275+, it caramelizes...

I'm asking if ANY of you have ever made your own and used it in a batch of the Pious - hence being in this thread. And you can use the analogy of "spending more guarantees a better product" but I won't buy that. It might be the case here, but I just want someone to tell me that they've tried both and hear their results. Just because the manufacturer comes in and says, "It's the ONLY solution, making your own is blasphemy!" does not mean I am going to believe it. Haven't heard or read one thing about how it's made or what ingredients they use to differentiate it from home-made syrup.
 
bottlebomber said:
To brew this with some homemade syrup would be like the episode of Pawn Stars where they restored the Shelby from a shell and then put Pleather seats in it to save a buck. Why compromise even a little bit on quality?
Click to expand...

How can you say the quality of my homemade syrup is less than the quality of the stuff you buy on the shelves? That's like saying the quality of Budweiser is greater than that of your homebrew just because it's got a neat package and is sold on retailer shelves. Again, I don't buy that.
 
JordanThomas said:
How can you say the quality of my homemade syrup is less than the quality of the stuff you buy on the shelves? That's like saying the quality of Budweiser is greater than that of your homebrew just because it's got a neat package and is sold on retailer shelves. Again, I don't buy that.
Click to expand...

It's like malting your own grain. It can be done, but the quality you get from known manufacturers far outstrips what a first-time hand can do at the job. If you can make candi syrup spectacularly after you have done it a few dozen times then have at it. I don't really see the point in making a beer that has to sit for a year to age properly that has an unknown variable.

For example, I made an Oud Bruin. I could have cultured my own wild yeasts and bacteria for it, but I used Roselare instead because if I have to wait 2 years to have a good product, then I want it to have the best ingredients and the best chance of turning into an awesome beer.
 
JordanThomas said:
How can you say the quality of my homemade syrup is less than the quality of the stuff you buy on the shelves? That's like saying the quality of Budweiser is greater than that of your homebrew just because it's got a neat package and is sold on retailer shelves. Again, I don't buy that.
Click to expand...

No, it's like saying I am going to use Breiss malt for an APA because the quality of a self-malted grain is vague at best.
 
JordanThomas said:
How can you say the quality of my homemade syrup is less than the quality of the stuff you buy on the shelves? That's like saying the quality of Budweiser is greater than that of your homebrew just because it's got a neat package and is sold on retailer shelves. Again, I don't buy that.
Click to expand...

You don't have to buy it. You are free to make your own syrup, and see how you like the end product and that is the beauty of home brewing. We don't have to drink it and you do, so in the end none of use have any real stake in what you choose. Use dark Karo syrup if you want.
 
bottlebomber said:
You don't have to buy it. You are free to make your own syrup, and see how you like the end product and that is the beauty of home brewing. We don't have to drink it and you do, so in the end none of use have any real stake in what you choose. Use dark Karo syrup if you want.
Click to expand...

I understand these things. This is why I've asked if anyone has tried to brew this with BOTH homemade and the retail product to compare. Oh well.
 
saq said:
Dark candi syrup is heavily caramelized and contributes towards NEARLY ALL of this beer styles flavor and color. You get heavy dark chocolate, candied cherry, caramel and other tasty things that you simply wont get anywhere else.
Click to expand...

I think I disagree about dark candi syrup providing nearly all this beer style's flavor and color. I have bought some CSI product to test this in November, but already I brew what I think are outstanding Belgian dubbels without using any syrup at all. These taste, IMO, just like Chimay or Westmalle but maybe fresher. I use chocolate malt and aromatic and some crystal malt.

Now maybe the Westvleteren is different - I have never had it, so I don't know.

Anyway, I fully acknowledge that I could be wrong and certainly someone jumped on me higher up in this forum for suggesting that syrup was not critical. (this criticism is what is prompting me to experiment with CSI products.)
 
Getting back to the spirit of Belgian quad awesomeness, has anyone brewed a Rochefort 10 recently? If yes, please share ...
 
I've made awesome syrup and great beers with it.

There isn't necessarily a compromise on quality, but the flavors, aromas, and mouthfeel will be different (and the differences may be only subtle). They are different between the two available commercial products. Try a couple of batches with the different commercial products while you tweak your homemade syrup.
 
meadowstream said:
I think I disagree about dark candi syrup providing nearly all this beer style's flavor and color. I have bought some CSI product to test this in November, but already I brew what I think are outstanding Belgian dubbels without using any syrup at all. These taste, IMO, just like Chimay or Westmalle but maybe fresher. I use chocolate malt and aromatic and some crystal malt.

Now maybe the Westvleteren is different - I have never had it, so I don't know.

Anyway, I fully acknowledge that I could be wrong and certainly someone jumped on me higher up in this forum for suggesting that syrup was not critical. (this criticism is what is prompting me to experiment with CSI products.)
Click to expand...

saq is the originator of this thread. Also, he is an award winning brewer and has been invited to professional Craft Brewing facilities to demonstrate his skill (and recipe). I would tend to take his advice a little more seriously.
 
orangehero said:
I've made awesome syrup and great beers with it.

There isn't necessarily a compromise on quality, but the flavors, aromas, and mouthfeel will be different (and the differences may be only subtle). They are different between the two available commercial products. Try a couple of batches with the different commercial products while you tweak your homemade syrup.
Click to expand...

Most kitchen syrup recipes create a fairly large list of unacceptable acids in the process due to shortcut chemical additives. The equipment required to coax the correct flavors out of beet sugar and the multiple physical processes required to do it are not something that can be done in a kitchen. I know the web is filled with recipes for these syrups (some are really questionable). Years ago we also thought making Candi Syrup was a simple proposition and followed some of the same ideas. Brew trials proved out what was workable and what was not. None of the stove top syrup recipes were acceptable by our standards. Creating a syrup of sorts isn't that difficult but creating a real old world Candi Syrup is a different set of challenges. Most kitchen syrup recipes can be created in 30-45 minutes. A genuine Candi Syrup takes a minimum of 3 days to create and finish. It's time consuming. It isn't as simple as boiling sugar on a resistance burner and tossing in some chemicals. I've bumped up against my NDA to say this much but some clarity is really needed on this because of all the mis-information out there. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from making their own kitchen syrups but wanted to clarify expectations.

Apologies to saq for the excursion. Back to the Westy 12 thread...
 
smokinghole said:
X2!

I started with the standard old world recipe and quickly began tinkering with the recipe from brew to brew. Now I'm brewing it with Legacy hops decoction temp raise, and closer to 40ibus. Sometimes I add a touch of acidulated malt too.

For me anymore it's about what I want not what another brewery makes.
Click to expand...

I live for this kind of innovation!
 
bottlebomber said:
You don't have to buy it. You are free to make your own syrup, and see how you like the end product and that is the beauty of home brewing. We don't have to drink it and you do, so in the end none of use have any real stake in what you choose. Use dark Karo syrup if you want.
Click to expand...

+1 Well said.
 
+1 to saq, I plan on brewing some sort of variation based on saqs recipe but the main distinction will be that I buy my Belgian candy sugar instead of making my own because #1 I don't know how to do that and #2 I don't have the freaking time to figure it out.

If I was single, didn't have kids that may be a different story but that is not the case so my brewing days are limited so I need to focus on successful brewdays on brewday #1
 

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