? about something I read in BYO

So reading over the Sept. Issue of BYO in the Trouble Shooting article there is a chart. Under the astringency category for extract is says this can be caused by steeping grains in to much water (over 3 quarts water per pound grain). I do full boils, around 6.5gal to start with. Therefore if I have 1lb-2lb of specialty grain I have way to much water based on this chart. Can anyone give some feedback on this. I have only been doing this for a year and only have 12 batches under my belt. I have one now that has a strong bitter aftertaste, NB tongue splitter. I figured it was the nature of the beer and over dryhopping in the keg. Thank you for the feedback.

I just had to pull my copy of that issue out as I never really had thought of too much water creating astringency (pour mash efficiency sure, but never though about astringency). My best guess is that somehow due to the lack of enzymatic activity (a reason you don't want an incredibly thin mash) it creates an environment favorable to the extraction of tanins from the grain. I could be way off though, that's just an off the top of the head guess.

I guess two much water could be an issue if your specialty grains are actually converting sugars, but not all specialty grains convert - they are just adding flavors. I guess it would depend on the grain.

This is in regards primarily to the PH of the water. As in mashing and in steeping if you have too much water the grains cannot correctly adjust the mash PH to the level that prevents tannins from being extracted. You really do need to use no more than 3 quarts per lb for steeping then you can add the rest of your water for the full boil or you *might* get some tannins.

Nashbrewer said:

This is in regards primarily to the PH of the water. As in mashing and in steeping if you have too much water the grains cannot correctly adjust the mash PH to the level that prevents tannins from being extracted. You really do need to use no more than 3 quarts per lb for steeping then you can add the rest of your water for the full boil or you *might* get some tannins.

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But isn't one of the requirements for extraction a high temperature? That is why it's recommended to sparge at no higher than 170F.

Steeping grains are commonly steeped at around 150 or so.

So would it be adviseable to steep my grains on the stove top in a small pot since I am only looking at 1 to 2 gallons and then add it to my 10 gallon brewpot with the other water and bring it to a boil. Also, would it hurt to take this gallon or 2 of 155 degree water and add it to water that is either a lot colder or a lot hoter. Thanks for the input.

Homercidal, that is something I see commonly mentioned about the temperature. I personally have not seen this when sparging as I do use water hotter than 170F, but I do know that it is mentioned often. The main reason I believe is that PH changes as the temp changes, so if your PH isn't spot on where it needs to be and you increase the temp you could throw your PH out of range and increase your tannin extraction. Since PH is the primary factory and PH is affected by temp, both are important.

Also it seems more important in steeping than in mashing since you often don't use grains high in enzymes that might affect the PH as much so you don't get as much of a stable PH so it is more highly affected by high temps than in a mash.

jritchie111 said:

So would it be adviseable to steep my grains on the stove top in a small pot since I am only looking at 1 to 2 gallons and then add it to my 10 gallon brewpot with the other water and bring it to a boil.

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That is what I do. I heat up the water in the boil kettle while steeping the grains on the stove top so I don't waste as much time waiting for the water to boil. When I brew I would estimate that at least half my time is spent waiting for the water to heat up before the boil and the wort to cool down after the boil.

Do your steeping grains in the oven at the lowest setting for 30 minutes using 1.5 to 2 quarts of water per pound. It's flawless and you don't have to mess with it.

The problem is pH related...once the water-to-grain ratio becomes too high the grains no longer have the buffering capacity to keep the pH in the 5's. The pH shoots up into the high 6's or low 7's and the tannins start coming out. If you must steep in your kettle; after adding your grains, stir well and adjust your water pH to 5.2-5.4 using Phosphoric or Lactic Acid.

You need both energy (aka temp) and high ph to get the tannins. Using to little water per lb woudl alow the ph to go up, also so would boiling the grains alow the energy to release the tannins to go up. - although as anyone who has made sun tea can tell you, it is more ph dependant, than energy dependant (ie the tannins come out even in low temps if the ph is over I think 5.8... tannin itself is an acidifier and will cause the ph to drop, I think tea can be as low as 4.5)

OP- I'd recomend if you have cook space, to do a 1 to 2 gallon heat for the steeping (aobut 150F) for about 30 mins - or your usual steep time, while simultaniously starting the remainder of your 5 or so gallons to boil. I suspect it will take most of that time to get the other water up to temp anyhow (saving you time).

Homercidal said:

But isn't one of the requirements for extraction a high temperature? That is why it's recommended to sparge at no higher than 170F.

Steeping grains are commonly steeped at around 150 or so.

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But it's not temperature AND pH that are required.

For example, even if you sparge at 145, you could extract tannins/have astringency issues if the pH is above 6.

So if I reduce my water to the suggested 3 quarts to 1lb specialty grain. My pH will naturally adjust to the 5.8 assuming that tap water is ~7 to start with?

jritchie111 said:

So if I reduce my water to the suggested 3 quarts to 1lb specialty grain. My pH will naturally adjust to the 5.8 assuming that tap water is ~7 to start with?

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Not necessarily- but you will more than likely be ok. I use 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain, and I'm normally in the 5.7 range or so without adding any acid because I have a high bicarb level in my water. Three quarts per pound is pretty thin, and if you have highly alkaline water you may want to go no more than two quarts per pound. However, if the beer is coming out great with steeping in the full volume I see no reason to change.

Yooper said:

But it's not temperature AND pH that are required.

For example, even if you sparge at 145, you could extract tannins/have astringency issues if the pH is above 6.

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Ah, yes, I had a momentary lapse of reason.

It has been a long time since I've brewed extract and that was mostly using RO water, where the pH is relatively low.

Just jump to AG and all your astringency problems will be gone!!

I've been trying to figure this out myself. I brewed Northern Brewer's dry Irish stout kit, steeping the grains in ~6 gal of water. Came out very harsh and bitter, so I assumed I had indeed extracted tannins. But, then I brewed NB's shining star pale ale kit, using the same process, and it turned out fantastic. I'm curious why the pale ale wasn't harsh and bitter too. Is it also dependent on the types of grains being steeped? I'm brewing another kit this week, and will be steeping the grains in a couple quarts of water, and adding to my full volume, but still confused why both kits turned out so differently.

Pat

Yes, different grains have different effects on the PH. Roasted grains (Black Patent, roasted barely) lower PH more than standard malted grains, but if I remember correctly have a lower buffering capacity. Malted grains have a higher buffering capacity but do not lower PH as much. To really determine what the cause was we would have to know the starting PH of your water(most likely not 7) and what grains you used in what amounts. Even then with out actual measurements of the PH throughout the process we are really just speculating.

mccullpl said:

I've been trying to figure this out myself. I brewed Northern Brewer's dry Irish stout kit, steeping the grains in ~6 gal of water. Came out very harsh and bitter, so I assumed I had indeed extracted tannins. But, then I brewed NB's shining star pale ale kit, using the same process, and it turned out fantastic. I'm curious why the pale ale wasn't harsh and bitter too. Is it also dependent on the types of grains being steeped? I'm brewing another kit this week, and will be steeping the grains in a couple quarts of water, and adding to my full volume, but still confused why both kits turned out so differently.

Pat

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It could be due to your water chemistry. My issue was the opposite- I could make awesome stouts but my lighter beers were a bit harsh and astringent. Lowering the amount of water in the steep might fix it, but it really depends on the water you're using also.

I'll definitely lower the volume of water I'm steeping in. The first few batches I made with a partial boil never had a problem, so I'm pretty sure this will fix it. From all I've read about this problem on the forum, I think the ultimate answer will always be 'it depends on your water'.

Thanks!

I was able to get a water report from the city prior to starting brewing and the water is within all the chemistry levels called out in Palmer's book. So it sound like I need to get a pH meter. Does anyone have any suggestions on a good quality but not super expensive pH meter.