Adding LME twice - 2 hot breaks?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

slcdawg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2012
Messages
199
Reaction score
8
Location
Golden
I brewed my second batch last night, an IPA kit. Palmer and another book I have both suggest doing the hop additions to low gravity boil. They both suggest adding half the LME initially, doing your hop additions and then adding the remaining LME in the last 15 minutes.

I tried this, but the second LME addition resulted in another hot break. I was doing a 3gal boil in a 7gal kettle. The hot break pushed a lot of the hop additions onto the sides of the kettle (out of the wort). This is potential issue #1. The hops are not in the wort for the full time on the recipe.

Issue #2 is that after I cooled the wort and poured it into the fermentor, there was no trub in the bottom of the kettle. In my first batch, there was a ton of sediment that was easy to prevent from pouring into the fermentor. In this batch I think the trub was spread out over the sides of the kettle. In hindsight I should have used a siphon, rather than pouring it. I think I got a bunch of trub in my fermentor.

Am I doing something wrong with the second LME addition? Anyone else do this with similar/different results? And, most importantly will the beer come out ok with all that trub in the fermentor? :D I think I will do a secondary on this one to help clarify it.
 
I don't normally get any hot break with LME, but it's certainly possibly since you did! Next time, add the LME at flame out or thereabouts and you'll avoid any chance of scorching and/or a mess again.

Trub in the fermenter is fine- it'll all settle out in the end with the yeast cake and other crud.
 
I brewed my second batch last night, an IPA kit. Palmer and another book I have both suggest doing the hop additions to low gravity boil. They both suggest adding half the LME initially, doing your hop additions and then adding the remaining LME in the last 15 minutes.

I tried this, but the second LME addition resulted in another hot break. I was doing a 3gal boil in a 7gal kettle. The hot break pushed a lot of the hop additions onto the sides of the kettle (out of the wort). This is potential issue #1. The hops are not in the wort for the full time on the recipe.

Issue #2 is that after I cooled the wort and poured it into the fermentor, there was no trub in the bottom of the kettle. In my first batch, there was a ton of sediment that was easy to prevent from pouring into the fermentor. In this batch I think the trub was spread out over the sides of the kettle. In hindsight I should have used a siphon, rather than pouring it. I think I got a bunch of trub in my fermentor.

Am I doing something wrong with the second LME addition? Anyone else do this with similar/different results? And, most importantly will the beer come out ok with all that trub in the fermentor? :D I think I will do a secondary on this one to help clarify it.

No, I've had that happen when bringing the wort back up to a boil after a late LME add. I never get much of a break anyway with LME, so I wan't really concerned about it.
I have to second Yooper's suggestion of the flameout LME add over the late add, a lot easier. I've recently taken to adding all of the LME at flameout when I brew extract, only steeping grain tea and hops in the boil, add LME at knockout, stir to dissolve and let sit covered for ~10 mins (or until temp is ~190, whichever happens sooner). I've noticed a big improvement in my extract beers since doing this, they're closer to my AG brews, and it's gotten me brewing a lot more extract/grains batches! :mug:
 
Thanks for the suggestions guys and gals! Nordeast, do you do a late addition with DME as well?

Regarding the trub in the fermentor - I did something foolish. Since there was no sediment, I poured the wort back and forth between the kettle and fermentor a couple of times to aerate...until noticing a ton of foam, presumably the trub. I spooned off as much as possible - there was a ton of foam - and then poured in the fermentor. Hopefully, comes out ok. Live and learn I suppose. :)
 
Thanks for the suggestions guys and gals! Nordeast, do you do a late addition with DME as well?

Yep, same thing, at knockout. It's a lot harder to stir in that LME, but it works.

I wouldn't worry about trub in the fermenter, no biggie. Also, it's fine to aerate the way you did, it actually works quite well, and there's no need to worry about that foam.
 
Yep, same thing, at knockout. It's a lot harder to stir in that LME, but it works.

I wouldn't worry about trub in the fermenter, no biggie. Also, it's fine to aerate the way you did, it actually works quite well, and there's no need to worry about that foam.

Thanks for the info! I will try that next time - adding DME/LME at knockout. I discarded the foam - for future reference, should I have kept it?
 
Thanks for the info! I will try that next time - adding DME/LME at knockout. I discarded the foam - for future reference, should I have kept it?

Yeah, there's no need to discard or worry about the foam, it's just break material/proteins. Many people let the break material go all the way through to the fermenter with no issue.
As for the knockout extract add, I think you'll find that there's many benefits to this. I've noticed some improvements in my extract beers since I started adding extract at the end, mainly in fermentability and flavor. Even when using fresh extract, I always noticed a little flavor that I assume is what folks mean when they say "extract twang", just a little, caramel-y flavor that wasn't s'posed to be there. I also had a real hard time getting even lighter extract beers to finish below 1.016-18, which bothered me more than the flavor. Since I started the KO add, I've gotten better fermentability/lower FGs and haven't noticed any 'extract' type flavors. My last extract brew was a cream ale, all LME and some carapils (I know) and cara 10, finished at 1.011 and is insanely good. I enjoy my extract brews as much as my AG brews now, and I think a lot of it has to do with handling the extract properly, including not cooking/boiling it at all.
 
Nordeast, so you add hops to water with only specialty grain sugar in it, if anything? So SG is near 1.0?
 
Nordeast, so you add hops to water with only specialty grain sugar in it, if anything? So SG is near 1.0?

Yep, steep grains in a gal or so of water, add to kettle with water to hit ~3 gal, boil, hop, maybe hop some more, kill flame, add LME/DME to a good whirlpool, stir it in and let sit for ~10 mins or so before cooling. Never bother to check a pre boil grav on an extract batch, but it's gotta be near 1.000.
 
Yeah, there's no need to discard or worry about the foam, it's just break material/proteins. Many people let the break material go all the way through to the fermenter with no issue.

Ok, good to know. I've read about off flavors by having the hot and cold break transferred to the fermentor, but everything is academic at this point. :)


As for the knockout extract add, I think you'll find that there's many benefits to this. I've noticed some improvements in my extract beers since I started adding extract at the end, mainly in fermentability and flavor. Even when using fresh extract, I always noticed a little flavor that I assume is what folks mean when they say "extract twang", just a little, caramel-y flavor that wasn't s'posed to be there. I also had a real hard time getting even lighter extract beers to finish below 1.016-18, which bothered me more than the flavor. Since I started the KO add, I've gotten better fermentability/lower FGs and haven't noticed any 'extract' type flavors. My last extract brew was a cream ale, all LME and some carapils (I know) and cara 10, finished at 1.011 and is insanely good. I enjoy my extract brews as much as my AG brews now, and I think a lot of it has to do with handling the extract properly, including not cooking/boiling it at all.

I'm definitely going to try this for my next batch. Thanks for the info!
 
Yep, steep grains in a gal or so of water, add to kettle with water to hit ~3 gal, boil, hop, maybe hop some more, kill flame, add LME/DME to a good whirlpool, stir it in and let sit for ~10 mins or so before cooling. Never bother to check a pre boil grav on an extract batch, but it's gotta be near 1.000.
Definitely going to do this with the Dead Ringer IPA kit I just received, makes perfect sense, because the LME has already had it's hot break, why do it again?
 
Definitely going to do this with the Dead Ringer IPA kit I just received, makes perfect sense, because the LME has already had it's hot break, why do it again?

Exactly! There's no need to boil LME (or DME) other than to ensure that any nasties are killed. And you don't need to boil to do that, pasteurizing will work fine and that happens in a few minutes at near boiling temps. I've been doing this on my last half dozen or so extract batches and I'm really liking the results. I know I've said this before on this and other threads, but since I've been adding all the extract at knockout, my extract beers are much more on par with my AG brews. It's pretty much, if not completely eliminated the only downside that I saw to extract, which was that distinctive extract flavor.
 
The title of this thread interests me,although I have a different situation. I often topp water during the boil so I can do a full boil (I make up for evaporation loss during the boil). I often get a hot break if boil ceases then comes back up in a minute. I wonder if it has any effect because I do this a few times during the boil. Although I do mostly all grain,I guess its a good thing then?
 
The title of this thread interests me,although I have a different situation. I often topp water during the boil so I can do a full boil (I make up for evaporation loss during the boil). I often get a hot break if boil ceases then comes back up in a minute. I wonder if it has any effect because I do this a few times during the boil. Although I do mostly all grain,I guess its a good thing then?

You should only get one hot break, as it's the grain (and not the water) that creates the hot break.

What you could make sure you do is get a good hot break before topping up with water. Each time you add water, you chill the temperature of the boil so that it's hard to keep a good rolling boil. I'd top up once, and then top up after the boil, as I really think continuing to add water would interfere with the boil.
 
The title of this thread interests me,although I have a different situation. I often topp water during the boil so I can do a full boil (I make up for evaporation loss during the boil). I often get a hot break if boil ceases then comes back up in a minute. I wonder if it has any effect because I do this a few times during the boil. Although I do mostly all grain,I guess its a good thing then?

I've never added top up water during the boil, so I can't speak to the effects. But I'd imagine if the boil is stopping and starting, it could affect the isomerization of the hops in the boil. Just curious, why not just top up after the boil? You don't need to do full boils with AG, it's just more common than not.
 
Well on the last brew I did, I added some and turned my back(stupidly) and I had a boil over so at times I just notice the proteins and foam more time than others. If proteins coagulating and foaming is hotbreak then yes I get this often after adding water when boil ceases and returns after a minute or two-I do understand its from the grain proteins resurfacing. I dont know why I just dont add it at the end, Ive just felt it would be better to boil it all during and maybe get better hop utilization but I understand(I think) that it doesnt really matter.
 
I did the flame out LME addition yesterday, (NB's Dead Ringer) only mistake I made was not figuring in the boil off evaporation, so I've got 4 1/2 gal in the primary happily bubbling along. I'm not going to mess with it. A few less bottles, no biggie. More hops than any beer I've made to date, totally excited, and have a gut feeling that this is the way to extract brew. All grain may be "the" way to brew, but I am lazy, and if I get good results from extract brewing, that gives me consistent good results, I may become an extract "snob". Wow, what a concept.;)
 
I tried this, but the second LME addition resulted in another hot break. I was doing a 3gal boil in a 7gal kettle. The hot break pushed a lot of the hop additions onto the sides of the kettle (out of the wort). This is potential issue #1. The hops are not in the wort for the full time on the recipe.

Don't be afraid to use a spoon/paddle to scrape the hops off the sides and back into the boil. It's hard to say how much hop utilization would be affected either way, but there's certainly no reason to feel as if you can't do something about it.
 
I did the flame out LME addition yesterday, (NB's Dead Ringer) only mistake I made was not figuring in the boil off evaporation, so I've got 4 1/2 gal in the primary happily bubbling along.

Do what you wish, of course, but just realize that by not having the prescribed volume your OG is higher and the flavor won't be quite what the recipe was meant to provide. A half gallon won't affect it too much, but the point is still valid. There's really no reason to just accept what you get for volume at the end of boil.
 
Don't be afraid to use a spoon/paddle to scrape the hops off the sides and back into the boil. It's hard to say how much hop utilization would be affected either way, but there's certainly no reason to feel as if you can't do something about it.

Agreed. I tried this, but there is only so much you can scrape into the pot. Still a lot of hops stuck on the sides of the pot.
 
Yep, steep grains in a gal or so of water, add to kettle with water to hit ~3 gal, boil, hop, maybe hop some more, kill flame, add LME/DME to a good whirlpool, stir it in and let sit for ~10 mins or so before cooling. Never bother to check a pre boil grav on an extract batch, but it's gotta be near 1.000.

Hmm this sounds really interesting. But what about extract recipes that do not require specialty grains?
 
When I use steeping grains, I add that liquor during the last 5 min of the boil, both all grain and extract....no real reason to boil steeping grain liquor.
 
When I use steeping grains, I add that liquor during the last 5 min of the boil, both all grain and extract....no real reason to boil steeping grain liquor.

That's where I'd have to differ. I'd so there is no real reason to boil extracts, but the steeping grain liquor is a different story. You may not need a hot break (but you'll probably get one) but grain is loaded with lactobacillus and other critters. Maybe only boiling for a few minutes would work, but I'd not chance it and boil it for as long as I boiled the hops.
 
I pretty much do steeping grains, or a partial mash I guess you could call it with extract. Haven't gotten off my rear end to go AG just yet, but it's happening.

I've in my last few batches, done the late extract addition. Normally, if it has DME in it as well, I'll add that early. So for instance, so I have 6.6# of LME, and 1# of DME, I'll add the DME early, and boil it with the liquor from my partial mash, of say, 2-3# of grains. I'll mash the grains for an hour in my kettle, pull the bag, sparge the bag with 1/2 gal or so of water @ 170 or so, and go from there with my boil.

One batch, I added it when I knocked the flame out, all 7# of LME. The other, I added in the last 5 minutes. Kicked the flame, added the LME, and kicked the flame back on. Never got it to a boil, but only because I didn't want to boil my 1min addition much longer on the hops for aroma and flavor. Temp was 195* or so, so I left it for 5-10mins while I got my wort chiller going, and started cooling it.

I've noticed a significant less "twang" in the beers, and it's really a much better product in the end. I actually hate using LME, as it darkens and burns easy, so I tried to use the DME more, but it's a fair bit more expensive in cases where you are using alot of it. Part of the reason I'm going AG. It's just plain cheaper in the long run.

As long as you give it a good stir and a few minutes in the hot wort, you don't need to boil it. I've not done just hops and water, so I can't comment on that, as I've always had a few pounds of grain I steep or mash in some cases so I have some grain sugars in the boil.
 
Nordeast, you have some good points about adding the extract late boil. I have been doing so more and more in recent batches.

However, one thing that you failed to mention (unless I missed it) was the hop utilization and final IBU's.

I recently made a Kolsch that came out at 29 IBU's. This is with half extract at 60 and half at flameout. I plugged the same recipe into Hopville but with all late addition LME. The half pound of mashed wheat remained the same at a 60 minute boil but the the IBU's jumped up to 41 just by adding the LME late.

The lower the gravity during boil the more hop utilization you will have therefore more IBU's. This is very important to not have your beer more bitter than you wanted.

I just felt this needed to advertised so these guys don't end up with the pucker face.
 
I recently made a Kolsch that came out at 29 IBU's. This is with half extract at 60 and half at flameout. I plugged the same recipe into Hopville but with all late addition LME. The half pound of mashed wheat remained the same at a 60 minute boil but the the IBU's jumped up to 41 just by adding the LME late.

The lower the gravity during boil the more hop utilization you will have therefore more IBU's. This is very important to not have your beer more bitter than you wanted.

Ah, so do I need to reduce the amount of hops to get the same IBUs? Using the recipe calculator on hopville, I see the IBUs change with late additions. How do you calculate this? Do you just reduce the bittering hops? Or, do you reduce all quantities? I did an IPA with 6 hop additions. It could get complicated guessing which ones to reduce. How do you adjust it to get the right combo?
 
Do you mind sharing what you did, for those of us not familiar with hopville?

Sure. I'm brand new to it as well, but will try. :) On the recipe calculator you can enter your ingredients. Once you add them all, it will show you the original/final gravity, IBU's, etc on the right hand side. To see how changing the malt extract to a late addition, click the edit button (next to the ingredient), check the box for 'Late', and then click on the checkmark. Clicking on the checkmark saves your changes and updates all the stats, including IBU's. This is what I was messing up before - the checkmark.

I still have questions on the best methodology to adjust your hop additions, if you choose to do a late malt addition.
 
Your 60 minute additions are going to give you your bitterness. There will be less bittering with a 40 minute and so on. The less boil, the more flavor you will get with less bitterness. Once you get to flameout you are only getting aroma with no bittering. I do believe Hopville accounts for this.
 
Your 60 minute additions are going to give you your bitterness. There will be less bittering with a 40 minute and so on. The less boil, the more flavor you will get with less bitterness. Once you get to flameout you are only getting aroma with no bittering. I do believe Hopville accounts for this.

So, if I buy a kit with various hop additions what methodology would I use to determine how much to reduce the hop additions, to get the desired IBUs at the end? And, if I get the IBUs the same that won't necessarily mean the flavor will be the same, right? For example, suppose you had a 60 min and a 30 min addition. As you stated, reducing the quantity from the 60 min addition will have a greater affect on the IBUs than the same quantity from the 30 min addition. But, I bet there are numerous combinations to come up with the same IBUs. Especially, if there are multiple hop additions. My last recipe had additions at 80, 60, 30 minutes which would all add to bittering to some degree.

Sorry to be obtuse - trying to figure out how to convert my next kit to doing the late addition method.
 
So, if I buy a kit with various hop additions what methodology would I use to determine how much to reduce the hop additions, to get the desired IBUs at the end? And, if I get the IBUs the same that won't necessarily mean the flavor will be the same, right? For example, suppose you had a 60 min and a 30 min addition. As you stated, reducing the quantity from the 60 min addition will have a greater affect on the IBUs than the same quantity from the 30 min addition. But, I bet there are numerous combinations to come up with the same IBUs. Especially, if there are multiple hop additions. My last recipe had additions at 80, 60, 30 minutes which would all add to bittering to some degree.

Sorry to be obtuse - trying to figure out how to convert my next kit to doing the late addition method.

Actually, gravity has very little to do with actual IBUs. We have multiple threads on this, and the "newer" science behind it so I won't go into it here. A simple search should find most of those threads.

If you feel that you MUST adjust (and I normally don't unless it's a very low IBU beer), you can reduce the bittering hops only by 15%. You do not want to adjust the later hops, as they are flavor and aroma hops and not about the IBUs.
 
Actually, gravity has very little to do with actual IBUs. We have multiple threads on this, and the "newer" science behind it so I won't go into it here. A simple search should find most of those threads.

If you feel that you MUST adjust (and I normally don't unless it's a very low IBU beer), you can reduce the bittering hops only by 15%. You do not want to adjust the later hops, as they are flavor and aroma hops and not about the IBUs.

Ah, ok. On the hopville site, they mention the calculations were derived from some books (presumably older) that may explain it. I will search out those threads. Thanks! :mug:
 
Back
Top