Bad after taste

I’ve brewed a few batches of different ales and all but one had a bitter (not like hoppy, IPA, good bitter), sour, almost stale taste. I thought it was because I was fermenting at like 80 degrees, so put my fermenter in a cooler with 65 degree water and had a good Irish Red. I tried this cooler method a second time and again have the bitter, sour, stale taste.
I always use dry yeast as I need all ingredients mailed to me.
I wonder about contamination, but its sealed up tight and I use One Step Cleaner to sanitize equipment.
I also wonder if I put the yeast in too soon. I added it just after the wart cooled to 80 degrees. But like I said, I then get it down to 65 within a few hours or less I think. I used only a primary fermenter and fermented for about two weeks.
So, contamination, bad yeast, adding yeast too hot? Any ideas? I’m really getting frustrated.

Bottle conditioning? How long are you letting sit in the bottles?

SilentAutumn said:

Bottle conditioning? How long are you letting sit in the bottles?

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Between three days and three months. It all tastes the same. Its aged at about 75 to 80 degrees

From what I know, cleaner usually isn't a sanitizer too. I would suggest using a no-rinse sanitizer like StarSan after you clean your equipment.

Without knowing more of how you're doing things, it's difficult to say where the bad flavors are coming from. I would suspect contamination is one possibility. Without knowing what yeast you're using, that could be part of it too. I would completely clean everything, then sanitize fully with StarSan and then see how that batch comes out. I would also give the yeast enough time to clean up after itself, so a minimum of 2-4 weeks on the yeast. Taste the brew before bottling to make sure it's actually ready.

How are you sanitizing the bottles? I've been using a bottling tree that I spray with StarSan just before I start putting sanitized bottles on it (filled with StarSan in a bucket, drained, then put on the tree. I've bottled several batches this way without any issues.

You can also try pitching the yeast once the wort is below 70F, but if you're getting it to under 70F within an hour or two, I don't think that's the cause.

Even dry yeast should arrive chilled. That's why you should store even dry yeast in the fridge (or even freezer)...

I would also put the bottles someplace closer to 70F for at least the carbonation time (~3 weeks typically, more for higher ABV brews)... Once carbonated, you can store them cooler. I would be cautious about storing my home brew at 75-80F for months. A couple of weeks, or while carbonating might be ok, but I'd work to get them closer to 70 for that time... Personally, I'd long term store/age my brews as close to 50-55F as possible. Or put them into a fridge at normal fridge temps once carbonated.

I'll be looking to create an aging/storage chamber for my brews/meads in the next few months. Basically, once the apartment is getting above 75F for any length of time. I am hoping to looking for a new place to live, where I'll either have access to a decent basement, or enough room to get a good sized chest freezer that I can put a JC onto for keeping the temp in the 50-55F range. That way, I'll be able to age my bigger beers, and mead, without worry.

unionrdr said:

I think 80F is too hot,in my experiences anyway. Get it down closer to ferment temps for a cleaner beer.

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So wll aging it at 80 degrees cause the sour / stale taste?

SilentAutumn said:

Bottle conditioning? How long are you letting sit in the bottles?

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I sanatise with a cleaner I got on line for a brew store. I age it after botteling for a few days to a few months, the bad taste is witihin a few days of botteling. But I an aging it ni the upper 70 lower 80 degree area. It temp an issue? So is is sanitation, temp. or something else?

unionrdr said:

I think 80F is too hot,in my experiences anyway. Get it down closer to ferment temps for a cleaner beer.

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will aging at too high a temp casue the stale bitter / sour taste?

unionrdr said:

Imo,it may be the fact that the start temp was too high,& then being conditioned at too high a temp. High temps at the start of primary fermentation is when most off flavors occur.
Then you have to let it sit on the yeast cake for a while to let the yeast clean up after itself. Not doing so & aging at high temps,may be preserving these off flavors.

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I started brewing at a friend's house with his equipment, then I got my stuff at my place. So I've had two different sanitizing and brewing places and it seems to have the same after taste.
The common denominator seems to be aging. I’ve always aged it in the same dark closet. It can’t be fermenting temp because I fixed that issue and yet one of two batches fermented at a cooler temp has the bad taste. Others have suggested contamination, but it seems that would be most likely in bottling, given that until then most equipment is boiled and yet the taste is uniform, its not like I messed up sanitation as to some but not all bottles. It could be pitching the yeast too hot. But I have tasted the beer after fermenting at bottling and it taste good, warm, flat, but good. After a few days in the bottle it seems to get rancid. But could it be the problem is pre-bottling and the flavor is just developing as time goes on and developing in a bad way? Could it be one time it was sanitation, another hot fermentation. Another hot aging and yet it all has the same bad taste?

I hate to open this can of worms, but what kind of water are you using? Water quality can dramatically impact flavor, and high pH water can lead to hop harshness. Have you tried bottled or RO water?

cervezarara said:

I hate to open this can of worms, but what kind of water are you using? Water quality can dramatically impact flavor, and high pH water can lead to hop harshness. Have you tried bottled or RO water?

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I've use about 2 gallons of distilled water and the rest purified bottled drinking water, I don't know the PH

Golddiggie said:

From what I know, cleaner usually isn't a sanitizer too. I would suggest using a no-rinse sanitizer like StarSan after you clean your equipment.

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+1 on this... I belive OneStep is just a cleaner, not a sanitizer. Get some StarSan or a similar no-rinse sanitizer as well.

cjb said:

+1 on this... I belive OneStep is just a cleaner, not a sanitizer. Get some StarSan or a similar no-rinse sanitizer as well.

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any thoughts on ageing temp of about 80 being the casue of sour / off taste?

togodoug said:

any thoughts on ageing temp of about 80 being the casue of sour / off taste?

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Personally, I wouldn't age any fermented item that hot... For aging temps, I tend to think of the 40-55F range (maybe up to 60F if that's a stable temp)...

The majority of notes I've seen on recipes that include aging steps list either temps in that range, or indicate keeping at "cellar temperatures" which is the same thing...

Golddiggie said:

Personally, I wouldn't age any fermented item that hot... For aging temps, I tend to think of the 40-55F range (maybe up to 60F if that's a stable temp)...

The majority of notes I've seen on recipes that include aging steps list either temps in that range, or indicate keeping at "cellar temperatures" which is the same thing...

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whatn I say ageing, I mean corbonating as well. You recommend carbonating that cool? I had thougth 70 or so was ideal.

I'm guessing temperature control is an issue in Saipan. Your ale should bottle carb pretty quickly at 80F. I try to carb/condition at 70F for three weeks, and in the winter here in Ohio, it is sometimes tough finding any area of the house that stays at 70 for a consistent period of time. But, yes, for carbonating and conditioning, higher temp is generally good.

Short term storage at 80, although not ideal, should not cause beer to go stale. We have a beverage store nearby that for some unknown reason is not air conditioned. All the craft beers are aged at 80+ during the summer, and though I cringe sometimes when I buy them, after chilling, they are fine.

If you have contamination, you will probably have a ring on the inside of the bottle at the liquid line. This is left by the bacteria, and is very hard to remove. Soaking in bleach or oxyclean and brushing vigorously doesn't always get it. But that may be a sign of infection if you have it.

Are you using the same yeast for all batches? In the past, dry yeast was crap, but Danstar and Safale have some good products these days. I was using all liquid, Wyeast and White Labs, until I tried US-05 recently for an IPA batch. The results are great, and it is less than half the cost of WY1056! If the yeast are old or stored improperly (ie, too hot) the viability may be low. If you are underpitching due to low yesat viability, the yeast may be stressed and that could cause some off flavors. I'm stretching here, because you report that beer in the primary tastes good and only develops off flavor in the bottle.

Can you condition some bottles at lower temp? Try to keep them at 70 for 3 weeks or so and see if they develop the off taste. If they have a background taste of green apples, let them condition another week or two.
I know you're frustated as can be, so I hope you can find the source of this flavor and eliminate it. I wish you the best of luck!

Can you post a recipe that you use?

The off-taste you are describing sounds to me like it might be what we call "cidery". Like the taste of apple cider. Are you using regular sugar in you batches. Large additions of table sugar can cause some "cidery" notes that many people find offensive.

One more vote that LHBS everywhere should put signs on their one-step displays which read in 84 font or so that it's NOT a sanitizer. I'm not sure if mine lied to me to get rid of it or just didn't know, but I've got a bunch of that glorified oxiclean under my sink taking up space. I'm pretty sure it was responsible for two batches getting dumped.

I agree with what's been said about temperature as well but if you're not sanitizing I'd look at that first.

togodoug said:

whatn I say ageing, I mean corbonating as well. You recommend carbonating that cool? I had thougth 70 or so was ideal.

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I would carbonate first, THEN age it at a lower temperature. Right now, I can maintain a normal temp range of the mid 60's to mid 70's where I carbonate and store my home brew. When the warmer weather comes, though, I'll be looking to place it all where it will be in the cooler range. If possible, I might get a chest freezer and put a temperature controller on it. If I can get a good sized one, then it will double as a fermentation chamber as well as where I can age my home brew. Since most of my yeasts are happy in the 55-65F range, it should work out well on both sides.

You might want to look into getting something that you can better control, temperature wise, at least for aging.

While I don't doubt what cervezarara says about the beverage store, you do need to keep in mind, those are commercial brews. I would take more care with my own home brew

What about O2 pickup? How do you move your beer, say from primary to secondary to pacaging? Is there a lot of splashing or are you careful between transfers?

theredben said:

Can you post a recipe that you use?

The off-taste you are describing sounds to me like it might be what we call "cidery". Like the taste of apple cider. Are you using regular sugar in you batches. Large additions of table sugar can cause some "cidery" notes that many people find offensive.

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That sounds like the taste but I'm using pre packaged corn sugar from Windwest Supply brew store.

GeauxBrew said:

What about O2 pickup? How do you move your beer, say from primary to secondary to pacaging? Is there a lot of splashing or are you careful between transfers?

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I'd say a fair bit of sloshing. I move the fermenter to the botteling bucket by carrying it about 20 feel down a hall and then lifting it up onto a counter. It does slosh a bit.

cervezarara said:

I'm guessing temperature control is an issue in Saipan. Your ale should bottle carb pretty quickly at 80F. I try to carb/condition at 70F for three weeks, and in the winter here in Ohio, it is sometimes tough finding any area of the house that stays at 70 for a consistent period of time. But, yes, for carbonating and conditioning, higher temp is generally good.

Short term storage at 80, although not ideal, should not cause beer to go stale. We have a beverage store nearby that for some unknown reason is not air conditioned. All the craft beers are aged at 80+ during the summer, and though I cringe sometimes when I buy them, after chilling, they are fine.

If you have contamination, you will probably have a ring on the inside of the bottle at the liquid line. This is left by the bacteria, and is very hard to remove. Soaking in bleach or oxyclean and brushing vigorously doesn't always get it. But that may be a sign of infection if you have it.

Are you using the same yeast for all batches? In the past, dry yeast was crap, but Danstar and Safale have some good products these days. I was using all liquid, Wyeast and White Labs, until I tried US-05 recently for an IPA batch. The results are great, and it is less than half the cost of WY1056! If the yeast are old or stored improperly (ie, too hot) the viability may be low. If you are underpitching due to low yesat viability, the yeast may be stressed and that could cause some off flavors. I'm stretching here, because you report that beer in the primary tastes good and only develops off flavor in the bottle.

Can you condition some bottles at lower temp? Try to keep them at 70 for 3 weeks or so and see if they develop the off taste. If they have a background taste of green apples, let them condition another week or two.
I know you're frustated as can be, so I hope you can find the source of this flavor and eliminate it. I wish you the best of luck!

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I don't see the rings. I've now got a styrophome box used for medical supples which I intend to use by putting n the botteld beer along with a frozen water bottle. I think that will keep it in the 60s or low 70s but most likely no steady aging / carbonating temp as I am away all day.
Can I put my already aged (two weeks) and off tasting (I assume the still capped bottels taste the same as the ones I've tried) and get rid of the taste?

cervezarara said:

I'm guessing temperature control is an issue in Saipan. Your ale should bottle carb pretty quickly at 80F. I try to carb/condition at 70F for three weeks, and in the winter here in Ohio, it is sometimes tough finding any area of the house that stays at 70 for a consistent period of time. But, yes, for carbonating and conditioning, higher temp is generally good.

Short term storage at 80, although not ideal, should not cause beer to go stale. We have a beverage store nearby that for some unknown reason is not air conditioned. All the craft beers are aged at 80+ during the summer, and though I cringe sometimes when I buy them, after chilling, they are fine.

If you have contamination, you will probably have a ring on the inside of the bottle at the liquid line. This is left by the bacteria, and is very hard to remove. Soaking in bleach or oxyclean and brushing vigorously doesn't always get it. But that may be a sign of infection if you have it.

Are you using the same yeast for all batches? In the past, dry yeast was crap, but Danstar and Safale have some good products these days. I was using all liquid, Wyeast and White Labs, until I tried US-05 recently for an IPA batch. The results are great, and it is less than half the cost of WY1056! If the yeast are old or stored improperly (ie, too hot) the viability may be low. If you are underpitching due to low yesat viability, the yeast may be stressed and that could cause some off flavors. I'm stretching here, because you report that beer in the primary tastes good and only develops off flavor in the bottle.

Can you condition some bottles at lower temp? Try to keep them at 70 for 3 weeks or so and see if they develop the off taste. If they have a background taste of green apples, let them condition another week or two.
I know you're frustated as can be, so I hope you can find the source of this flavor and eliminate it. I wish you the best of luck!

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One more thing for you and the other helpful folks. If it were sanitation, would not most of the problem be with botteling, as prior to that almost every thing is boiled, and if that it it, wouldn't the bad taste be inconsistant? Some bottles worse than others?

togodoug said:

One more thing for you and the other helpful folks. If it were sanitation, would not most of the problem be with botteling, as prior to that almost every thing is boiled, and if that it it, wouldn't the bad taste be inconsistant? Some bottles worse than others?

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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Sanitation comes into play every step of the game after the boil: the cooling of the beer, cleanliness and chemical sanitation of the primary fermentor, pitching of yeast, racking the beer at various stages, bottling, etc. One-step is not a sanitizer, it's a cleaner. Wild yeast and bacteria are growing in the beer you make if you don't use a sanitizer like iodophor/starsan. Infected beer has off flavors like "sourness" and "harshness." There may be some variation in your bottles, but if you have an infected batch in the fermentor, every cubic centimeter of beer is going to have infections microbes floating in it, and thus every bottle will be "infected." Your observation that the beer tastes better at bottling than it does after 2 weeks in the bottle also points to infection. The slow, cumulative effects of an infection can take a little while to reach the threshold of your taste buds once the major activity of your intended (pitched) yeast strain tapers off. Make a batch and sanitize everything besides the boil kettle with iodophor and see if that doesn't fix your problem... this isn't bad luck or evil magic -- something is wrong with your process and you need to assess it.

Here is a commonly linked list of off flavors, from John Palmer's "How to Brew" first edition, and free, online:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Do any of these seem to describe your beer? If so, it may be easier to diagnose your problem.

cervezarara said:

Here is a commonly linked list of off flavors, from John Palmer's "How to Brew" first edition, and free, online:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Do any of these seem to describe your beer? If so, it may be easier to diagnose your problem.

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thanks a lot. Having read that page my beer tester (guy I work with) thinks its the banana / estery flavor and so fermenting temp is the issue. I'm thinking more of an astrigent flavor so can't rule out bacteria.
I'm about one week into fermentation now, so we'll see how this turns out.
It's possible also I've oxegenated the wort while still above 80 degrees by pooring it from brew pot into the fermenter. I'm not sure how this effects taste.
I've used Munton and Fison dry yeast. Any thoughts on this being a poor yeast to use? Thanks a lot.

No problem pouring wort from brewpot to fermentor, that is good for the yeast.

It sounds like fermentation temperatures are your issue, which is possible to fix without chemicals.

Is there somewhere nearby that sells Safale/Nottingham yeasts? Those are far superior to Munton yeasts.

bigbeergeek said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Sanitation comes into play every step of the game after the boil: the cooling of the beer, cleanliness and chemical sanitation of the primary fermentor, pitching of yeast, racking the beer at various stages, bottling, etc. One-step is not a sanitizer, it's a cleaner. Wild yeast and bacteria are growing in the beer you make if you don't use a sanitizer like iodophor/starsan. Infected beer has off flavors like "sourness" and "harshness." There may be some variation in your bottles, but if you have an infected batch in the fermentor, every cubic centimeter of beer is going to have infections microbes floating in it, and thus every bottle will be "infected." Your observation that the beer tastes better at bottling than it does after 2 weeks in the bottle also points to infection. The slow, cumulative effects of an infection can take a little while to reach the threshold of your taste buds once the major activity of your intended (pitched) yeast strain tapers off. Make a batch and sanitize everything besides the boil kettle with iodophor and see if that doesn't fix your problem... this isn't bad luck or evil magic -- something is wrong with your process and you need to assess it.

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Thanks. From what I read, I really thougth One Step would sanatize and be fine. Other folks claim to use it as a sanatizer without issue, but the tatse I'm having seems to fit the symptom.

theredben said:

No problem pouring wort from brewpot to fermentor, that is good for the yeast.

It sounds like fermentation temperatures are your issue, which is possible to fix without chemicals.

Is there somewhere nearby that sells Safale/Nottingham yeasts? Those are far superior to Munton yeasts.

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thanks again. But as to the pouring, I now airating is good, but I've read it can caouse souring if its done befre the wort cools to below 80 degrees. Not True?
I can get Nottingham ale yeast. Thanks.
If my problem is bacteria and I have a scratch in my fermenter, am I just screwed, need a new fermenter?

bigbeergeek said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Sanitation comes into play every step of the game after the boil: the cooling of the beer, cleanliness and chemical sanitation of the primary fermentor, pitching of yeast, racking the beer at various stages, bottling, etc. One-step is not a sanitizer, it's a cleaner. Wild yeast and bacteria are growing in the beer you make if you don't use a sanitizer like iodophor/starsan. Infected beer has off flavors like "sourness" and "harshness." There may be some variation in your bottles, but if you have an infected batch in the fermentor, every cubic centimeter of beer is going to have infections microbes floating in it, and thus every bottle will be "infected." Your observation that the beer tastes better at bottling than it does after 2 weeks in the bottle also points to infection. The slow, cumulative effects of an infection can take a little while to reach the threshold of your taste buds once the major activity of your intended (pitched) yeast strain tapers off. Make a batch and sanitize everything besides the boil kettle with iodophor and see if that doesn't fix your problem... this isn't bad luck or evil magic -- something is wrong with your process and you need to assess it.

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Lets assume sanitation is my issue and I have scratches inside my fermenter collecting bacteria. What to do?

Your problem may indeed be sanitation, but don't be so quick to throw One-Step under the bus. Contrary to advice given in this thread it IS a sanitizer. It's not labelled as such due to governmental red tape, but it absolutely is a sanitizer.

That being said, nothing wrong with StarSan (my preferred sanitizer), Iodaphor, or even bleach. I've used them all, and along with One-Step would recommend them all.

If you've got scratches (and not just scuffs), you have basically two options.
1. A long soak in the sanitizer of your choice, then hope for the best.
2. Throw it away, or use it as your sanitizer bucket and get a new fermenter.

I also wouldn't overlook water. Though you've stated that you use filtered, or store bought wate, this probably isn't he culprit. Just be aware that Ph isn't the only factor in water to look out for. There is chlorine, chloromine, and alkalinity. I have very alkaline water here, and until I went with bottled water.... all my beer was very bitter. Not hop bitter, but bitter. When I lived on the East Coast, the tap water made wonderful beer.

Also, as has been stated already, freshness of ingredients can cause problems. Or should I say LACK of freshness. Try to get the freshest possible and store accordingly.

Temp control during early fermentation is critical... already covered though.

Looks like the key elements have been covered. Don't worry about he souring because you aerated at or above 80. There is such a thing as hot side aeration, that causes problems, but it's all but negligible for the home brewer. 80 is not he magic threshold. The cooler the better, but you have quite a bit of wiggle room there. I wouldn't even worry about that.

Good luck.

jollytim said:

Your problem may indeed be sanitation, but don't be so quick to throw One-Step under the bus. Contrary to advice given in this thread it IS a sanitizer. It's not labelled as such due to governmental red tape, but it absolutely is a sanitizer.

That being said, nothing wrong with StarSan (my preferred sanitizer), Iodaphor, or even bleach. I've used them all, and along with One-Step would recommend them all.

If you've got scratches (and not just scuffs), you have basically two options.
1. A long soak in the sanitizer of your choice, then hope for the best.
2. Throw it away, or use it as your sanitizer bucket and get a new fermenter.

I also wouldn't overlook water. Though you've stated that you use filtered, or store bought wate, this probably isn't he culprit. Just be aware that Ph isn't the only factor in water to look out for. There is chlorine, chloromine, and alkalinity. I have very alkaline water here, and until I went with bottled water.... all my beer was very bitter. Not hop bitter, but bitter. When I lived on the East Coast, the tap water made wonderful beer.

Also, as has been stated already, freshness of ingredients can cause problems. Or should I say LACK of freshness. Try to get the freshest possible and store accordingly.

Temp control during early fermentation is critical... already covered though.

Looks like the key elements have been covered. Don't worry about he souring because you aerated at or above 80. There is such a thing as hot side aeration, that causes problems, but it's all but negligible for the home brewer. 80 is not he magic threshold. The cooler the better, but you have quite a bit of wiggle room there. I wouldn't even worry about that.

Good luck.

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thanks

theredben said:

No problem pouring wort from brewpot to fermentor, that is good for the yeast.

It sounds like fermentation temperatures are your issue, which is possible to fix without chemicals.

Is there somewhere nearby that sells Safale/Nottingham yeasts? Those are far superior to Munton yeasts.

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Any thoughts on Cooper's Ale yeast?
Nottingham seem to come in 11 gm pouch and I think I should be using about 6 gm. It also makes the rehydration process seem complicated and easy to mess up.