Weihenstephaner 3068 Starter?

I will be using a Weihenstephaner 3068 smack pack for a upcoming Hefeweizen. Do I need to use a starter? I've never used a smack pack before or a starter.

Always use a starter when using liquid yeast, this will help you decide how big the starter should be.

Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator

+1. If you don't make a starter chances are your beer will be under attenuated, overly sweet and have less alcohol.

Also as a side note. That yeast ferments very viguriously. Have a blow off ready if you are using a carboy..

Weizens are usually low enough grav that you would probably be able to get away with no starter. And we use that yeast for yeast character, so even if you underpitch and get more fruitiness then it's all good.

But I agree that starters are a good idea. Heck, grow a big starter, split it up, pitch half now and half in a couple of weeks when you do the next batch. Now your yeast is $3.50 instead of $7.00.

It all depends on whether you are using a "Propogator" or and "Activator" smack pack from Wyeast labs. If using the Propogator then..YES. Make a starter.

The Activator is designed to be pitched directly into your wort. Assuming it's just a 5 gallon batch. If you are making more than 5 gallons then you would need to pitch more yeast. You can always search to find a pitching rate calculator to get the right amount needed.

BTW I recently made a nice 6.5 gallon batch of Ed's Bavarian Hefeweizen using the same Weihenstephaner 3068 yeast. You'll definitely need a blow-off tube. It ferments very strongly.

the_Roqk said:

The Activator is designed to be pitched directly into your wort. Assuming it's just a 5 gallon batch. If you are making more than 5 gallons then you would need to pitch more yeast. You can always search to find a pitching rate calculator to get the right amount needed.

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Not really, the Activator pack provides about 100 billion cells, which is enough yeast for a 5 gallon batch at 12P (1.048). For most ales, even wheats, you want to pitch .75 million cells, per milliliter of wort, per degree Plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

From the Mr. Malty website...

According to both White Labs and Wyeast, a White Labs Pitchable Yeast vial and a Wyeast ACTIVATOR™ 125 XL Smack Pack both contain an average of 100 billion cells and are enough to pitch directly into 5 US gallons (18.9 liters) of an ale wort at 1.048 SG (12°P). This is a pitching rate of 5.3 million cells per milliliter, which is close to the pitching rate many professional breweries begin with when starting a new pitch of ale yeast. This rate works well because the health and vitality of fresh laboratory cultured yeast are superior to yeast harvested from normal fermentation. Both companies also concur that higher gravity worts, especially once they exceed a specific gravity of 1.060 (15°P), larger wort volumes, and lager fermentations all require higher pitching rates (or a starter) for optimum results.

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http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.htm

BarleyWater said:

Not really, the Activator pack provides about 100 billion cells, which is enough yeast for a 5 gallon batch at 12P (1.048). For most ales, even wheats, you want to pitch .75 million cells, per milliliter of wort, per degree Plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort) From the Mr. Malty website...


Fourteen Essential Questions About Yeast Starters

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This is directly from Wyeast Labs website.

Here's the link: Wyeast Laboratories. Activatorâ„¢



Activator™
Activator™ Product Information and Usage
Activator™ packages are designed for direct inoculation of 5 gallons of standard* wort. Activator™ packages contain live yeast cells in a liquid slurry. This yeast slurry is packaged in an optimum condition for storage, while maintaining the ability for rapid and complete fermentation.

Activator™ packages include a sterile liquid nutrient pouch that, when “smacked”, releases its contents into the yeast slurry and “activates” the package. The available nutrients initiate the culture’s metabolism which in turn generates CO2 and causes swelling of the package. This process will reduce lag times by preparing the yeast for a healthy fermentation prior to inoculation. Activation also serves as a viability test of the culture. Expansion of the package is an indicator of healthy (viable and vital) yeast. Although beneficial, cultures do not need to be activated prior to inoculation.

Usage

The Activator™ package contains a minimum of 100 billion cells in a yeast slurry.. The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. For lagers, we recommend inoculating the wort at warm temperatures (68-70°F/ 20-21°C), waiting for signs of fermentation, and then adjusting to the desired temperature. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate. This can be achieved by pitching additional Activator™ packages or by making a starter culture. Please see the Pitch Rate section for additional information


I suppose Wyeast Labs is "Not Really" able to make a directly pitchable product and then able to post their recommendations on their website.

the_Roqk said:

I suppose Wyeast Labs is "Not Really" able to make a directly pitchable product and then able to post their recommendations on their website.

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People sure can be rude on the internet. I was simply stating that even though it says that, it is a statement geared towards homebrewers, the majority of whom do not know how to properly make a starter (HBT members excluded), and it can't be used for any 5 gallon batch. If the professional pitching rate is (0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort) for ales, and 1.5 million for lager, then how could the same pitching rate be applied to such a wide range of OG's. Proper pitching rate is a crucial part of flavor development in the beer. Also, most professional brewers wouldn't advise pitching a lager warm, but for homebrewers it helps assure the yeast gets a good foothold.

Don't make a starter if you don't want to, your beer will be fine, but it will be better if you follow the correct pitching guidelines.

I made a hefe with this yeast and it turned out great. I made a 1.5L starter. Also, I followed Jamil's advice from "Brewing Classic Styles" and fermented at 62F. This temp seems to be perfect for that right "hefe" flavor.

BarleyWater said:

People sure can be rude on the internet. I was simply stating that even though it says that, it is a statement geared towards homebrewers, the majority of whom do not know how to properly make a starter (HBT members excluded), and it can't be used for any 5 gallon batch. If the professional pitching rate is (0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort) for ales, and 1.5 million for lager, then how could the same pitching rate be applied to such a wide range of OG's. Proper pitching rate is a crucial part of flavor development in the beer. Also, most professional brewers wouldn't advise pitching a lager warm, but for homebrewers it helps assure the yeast gets a good foothold.

Don't make a starter if you don't want to, your beer will be fine, but it will be better if you follow the correct pitching guidelines.

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Look buddy this is NOT a pissing contest! I'm not being rude here. But when you chime in and try to disclaim my post. That's when I feel it's right to defend it with actual facts. I felt as though it's appropriate to advise the Original Poster and anyone else that will read this thread about what Wyeast recommends on their product.

As far as pitching rates are concerned, and my OG was near 1.060 then yes I'd like to have a starter or double pitch a liquid yeast pack. So far, and I'm sure there are many other homebrewers that have used "pitchable" liquid yeasts (according to the recommendations of Wyeast) before without using a starter with great results. But as always there are variables to contend with. It would be nice to have a perfect yeast to gravity wort pitch ratio every time. But it's sad to say we live in an imperfect world. If you're offended by my last post on the subject, well then that's your business. Maybe we can agree to disagree.

Cheers!

OK this is getting ridiculous. Either way the original poster will be making beer. Yay! That being said if the original poster makes a starter he or she will be making better beer than without a starter. period...

michael.berta said:

OK this is getting ridiculous. Either way the original poster will be making beer. Yay! That being said if the original poster makes a starter he or she will be making better beer than without a starter. period...

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Agreed! I suppose I should have kept my $ .02's worth outa this little thread and just directly emailed the OP.

Or I could have just posted these links:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/starter-necessary-84567/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/smack-pack-starter-103328/

Yeast Starters - Home Brewing Wiki

Pitching the Yeast - Home Brewing Wiki

Decided to make a starter and its looking good so far. Thanks for the advice. Will be brewing tomorrow.

The funny thing about this argument is that it was caused by the_Roqk's avatar.

I read a lot of forums and have found that an aggressive avatar is always the starting points of most disagreements.

As an outsider - yes - that is what the Wyeast site SAYS but that does not mean they are 100% correct. Just like many "professional" instructions are dummied up for the lowest common denominator.

Question authority and if you have an aggressive avatar expect to be challenged.

It's pretty common knowledge by now that the Wyeast Activator or White Labs vial are not enough to correctly pitch...but that is their claim and you certainly can get away with it. For years I got away with 1/2 qt. starters using a Propagator pack (even less yeast).

But the main reason I wanted to post is that generally speaking, Hefeweizens can actually benefit from under-pitching. It's an outlier in that regard.

EDIT: If you find this post offensive...
<----LOOK! Sunny Florida...how relaxing.

I feel so relaxed all of a sudden.

Under pitch?? Why is this ??

Grinder12000 said:

The funny thing about this argument is that it was caused by the_Roqk's avatar.

I read a lot of forums and have found that an aggressive avatar is always the starting points of most disagreements.

As an outsider - yes - that is what the Wyeast site SAYS but that does not mean they are 100% correct. Just like many "professional" instructions are dummied up for the lowest common denominator.

Question authority and if you have an aggressive avatar expect to be challenged.

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Wow! And I thought that my last reply on #13 was very appropriate. I guess this thread will just not die. I didn't realize that my avatar would be so ScaRy and aggressive looking. I suppose I'll just hafta find out if everyone on this forum feels the same way. Thanks for letting me know this Grinder.

no no - I'm not saying YOU are aggressive but seriously, a guy leaning over stepping on you is aggressive. There have been other avatars on this blog from known people and I notice that these TEND to have more . . . . . . non-passive responses.

This holds true with many forums - I think it's fascinating!

Just in the middle of brewing with that yeast. DID NOT use a starter. In fact I smacked the pack and was worried about it, did not swell to it's max, even after almost 24 hours in 73 degree kitchen. Used it, because I had to. Dumped into the wort about 8:00 pm, and by 7:00 am it was coming up the blowoff tube, fermenting at about 68-70 degree basement. Down to a bubble every 10 seconds now, 5 days fermenting so far.

I see you have made a starter, but as everyone said, make sure you have room for this one to take off, when it goes it goes!!

SpanishCastleAle said:

It's pretty common knowledge by now that the Wyeast Activator or White Labs vial are not enough to correctly pitch...but that is their claim and you certainly can get away with it. For years I got away with 1/2 qt. starters using a Propagator pack (even less yeast).

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I like Mr. Malty's site, but I have a hard time believing that your average person pitching from a starter or slurry is within even 20% of the yeast they need, whether high or low. Especially when we start talking about slurry and have to use the thin/thick slider. I would guess that most people using that are over-pitching by as much as this guy is under-pitching.

An activator pack is perfect, by itself, for pitching milds, bitters, other small beers, and anything that needs a lot of yeast character, like a Hefe.

It seems like almost everything on here is geared towards 6.5%+, and people seem to forget the small beers.