How to build a control panel (part 1)

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The answer may be posted above and I missed it....

Kal, your wiring diagram shows your power-in neutral wired straight to your neutral bus, but your photo shows your neutral in spliced into one of your pump's neutral. I couldn't squeeze in three 14 AWG neutral wires to that pump neutral, so can I just go straight to the neutral bus like the wiring diagram? Thanks.
 
So I have been looking at the prices of for the DPDT relays needed and they aren't cheap. Even more so the price from the online vendor linked to on Kals site has recently increased their pricing ~$20 for three relays. After a search tonight I found this supplier. I was wondering if the 240v version on this page would work for our needs? If so would using this slightly different version require me to change my wiring? At $4 each these seem like a steal if they work for our needs.

Proposed vendor:
http://www.solarelectricinc.com/DPDT-12V-24V-120V-or-240V-30A-Relay-DPDT-30A-12V-24V-120-240V.htm

Only vendor on ebay I could find:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-NEW-30A-DPDT-...326?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2c29572e
 
Maltose said:
The answer may be posted above and I missed it....

Kal, your wiring diagram shows your power-in neutral wired straight to your neutral bus, but your photo shows your neutral in spliced into one of your pump's neutral. I couldn't squeeze in three 14 AWG neutral wires to that pump neutral, so can I just go straight to the neutral bus like the wiring diagram? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Yes.

My diagrams show what should be done. In practice I'll sometimes go somewhere else to get to the 120V hot or the neutral. Same result. This is done so that I could draw up the diagrams separately. It would not make sense in the "POWER" diagram to show the neutral connected to the pump outlet and then back to the neutral bus.

To quote myself from the 'STEP 5: Wire up power" page here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=7

You may notice what appears to be extra wires in some of the close-up photos when compared to the wiring diagrams. This is normal. For example, in the wiring diagram immediately below the 120V power light connects to the HOT and NEUTRAL bus only (2 wires, one black, one white) but in the photos further below there are 4 wires. This is because other parts that need to be wired to the HOT and NEUTRAL bus later on were wired to the two sides of the 120V power light instead. The result is the same. There's no need to send 10 pairs of wires all the way back to the buses each time.
Click to expand...

So the opposite is true too, if you NEED to send 10 wires all the way back, go for it.

Kal
 
Scut_Monkey said:
So I have been looking at the prices of for the DPDT relays needed and they aren't cheap. Even more so the price from the online vendor linked to on Kals site has recently increased their pricing ~$20 for three relays. After a search tonight I found this supplier. I was wondering if the 240v version on this page would work for our needs? If so would using this slightly different version require me to change my wiring? At $4 each these seem like a steal if they work for our needs.

Proposed vendor:
http://www.solarelectricinc.com/DPDT-12V-24V-120V-or-240V-30A-Relay-DPDT-30A-12V-24V-120-240V.htm

Only vendor on ebay I could find:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-NEW-30A-DPDT-...326?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2c29572e
Click to expand...

Well the "Proposed Vendor" $4 relays are 240v coil. They can work, but you'd have to re-think your wiring to the coil. Also, I highly doubt they'll honor the $4 price. I think that's a typo since all the other coil types are $44. Basically instead of neutral on one side of the coil, it would need to be the other hot bus. Hot A in one side. Hot B in the other side.
 
Scutmonkey:
You need a definite purpose contactor that is double pole, 30 amp with a 120 vac coil. You should be able to find them for less than $15. Here is a link for a FASCO contactor for $8.
http://www.cshincorporated.com/product_info.php/cPath/123_68/products_id/3231
You could also search ebay for "definite purpose contactor". They all look slightly different but are used for the same purpose. Aubers sells them for $14.50
 
stevehaun said:
Scutmonkey:
You need a definite purpose contactor that is double pole, 30 amp with a 120 vac coil. You should be able to find them for less than $15. Here is a link for a FASCO contactor for $8.
http://www.cshincorporated.com/product_info.php/cPath/123_68/products_id/3231
You could also search ebay for "definite purpose contactor". They all look slightly different but are used for the same purpose. Aubers sells them for $14.50
Click to expand...

Does this take the place of the DPDT relay or is this an additional part I would need in combination with the relay I proposed? I'm not sure exactly what this does. From what I gather this is something used in combo with the relay for the needed 120V coils but I'm still unsure of the purpose of it. Thanks for the help.
 
stevehaun said:
definite purpose contactor serves the same exact function as a DPST relay.
Click to expand...

Are there disadvantages/advantages to using them instead of a DPST or a DPDT? If they are so much cheaper there must be some drawback to using them. Thanks for the insight.
 
The difference between DPST and DPDT is that with the DPDT you can go two ways with the electricity. Coil open makes the relay closed for Circuit A and open for Circuit B. Coil closed reverses this and makes Circuit A open and Circuit B close. I think they make DPST relays, but it's more common to find DPDT relays. For Kals build, he really only needed DPST, but since DPDT are more common, he chose those. So for a Kal style build, the DPST contactor is just fine.
 
Definite purpose contactors are widely used in industry and HVAC. I don't know of any advantages of a DPDT high power relay versus a DPDT definite purpose contactor. Maybe someone else knows the difference.
 
bbognerks said:
The difference between DPST and DPDT is that with the DPDT you can go two ways with the electricity. Coil open makes the relay closed for Circuit A and open for Circuit B. Coil closed reverses this and makes Circuit A open and Circuit B close. I think they make DPST relays, but it's more common to find DPDT relays. For Kals build, he really only needed DPST, but since DPDT are more common, he chose those. So for a Kal style build, the DPST contactor is just fine.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. However, I'm not questioning the difference between DPDT and DPST but to use an definite purpose contactor instead of a relay. My question is essentially why this should or should not be used for Kals build when they are cheaper and seem to be equivalent to a relay.

I can't seem to find much info explaining this on HBT or via google searches.
 
stevehaun said:
Definite purpose contactors are widely used in industry and HVAC. I don't know of any advantages of a DPDT high power relay versus a DPDT definite purpose contactor. Maybe someone else knows the difference.
Click to expand...

In all reality I don't see myself changing how I will be build this control box (Kal's control box). However, someone with more understanding might be more comfortable switching to use a definite purpose contactor rather than a relay.

I posed this question on Kal's website as well. http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24680. I realize some people get upset with others posting in different areas for the same question but I figure there is a higher number of readers overall on this sight but perhaps more people on Kal's sight that have built and used this control box.
 
Kal refers to both on his website:
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=7
I think the difference may largely be semantic.

I use definite purpose contactors in my system but my system is 50 amp 240 vac. Thus I needed a 50 amp contactor for the power entrance into my control panel and a 30 amp 240 vac contactor for each element. I have two elements in both my BK and HLT. I think the definite purpose contactors are made for higher amperage applications such as HVAC, lighting and large electric motors. The DPDT relays are typically lower amperage applications. If you look for definite purpose contactors it is not uncommon to find 75 to 100 amp two or three pole contactors.

Hopefully, someone will give you a concrete answer.
 
Scut_Monkey said:
In all reality I don't see myself changing how I will be build this control box (Kal's control box). However, someone with more understanding might be more comfortable switching to use a definite purpose contactor rather than a relay.
Click to expand...

Scut, with the risk of being proven wrong, I'd say that all contactors are Single Throw (xPST). If it is Dual Throw then it is a relay.

Contactors have special heavy-duty contacts. Despite being Single Throw they use two contacts per pole. Two contact pairs in series increase the probability that the contactor can break the current should one contact pair be welded closed.
 
bbognerks said:
The difference between DPST and DPDT is that with the DPDT you can go two ways with the electricity. Coil open makes the relay closed for Circuit A and open for Circuit B. Coil closed reverses this and makes Circuit A open and Circuit B close. I think they make DPST relays, but it's more common to find DPDT relays. For Kals build, he really only needed DPST, but since DPDT are more common, he chose those. So for a Kal style build, the DPST contactor is just fine.
Click to expand...
Exactly right. DPDT relays are indeed more common and that's why I used them. 30A contactors (single pole, single throw) with a 120V coil are fine too. I do mention also being able to use contactors on my site (as Steve H mentions) but I purposely try to shy away from given a bazillion options to people since it just creates confusion. Either will work. My instructions have to be based on what I bought in 2009. I don't have the luxury of building 10 variations of the control panel and writing up instructions and diagrams for each. Change only 5-10 parts and the permutations and combinations go into the thousands. That's a lot of pictures to draw up! ;)

Back when I build my panel (early 2009) relays were more common. The contactor vs relay was a non-issue since they were basically the same price. I liked the relays since you could see the physical contacts and if needed, I could clean them down the road. Contactors are all sealed up. Probably not an issue but given that the price was the same back when I bought, I went with the 'bigger', more accessible DPDT relays.

Rant: Some of the eBay sellers are now listing the parts I use for literally 2-10x time price they used to sell for just a month or so ago. Example: The AC -> DC variable power supply I used was $6.99 shipped when I bought it, now it's listed as $70 by some. The relay in question was under $20, now it's $45. Bastards!

The moral of the story: If you need more handholding when wiring everything up, use what I did as the parts in the diagrams will then look like the ones I used and you don't have to try to 'translate' how to wire things up. If you know how to deviate from the parts listed and still provide the same functionality, by all means go for it. If you're *really* lost, wait for the control panel to be sold fully assembled and ready to go (hopefully not long now!) :)

Happy building! Err, brewing!

Kal
 
kal said:
Rant: Some of the eBay sellers are now listing the parts I use for literally 2-10x time price they used to sell for just a month or so ago. Example: The AC -> DC variable power supply I used was $6.99 shipped when I bought it, now it's listed as $70 by some. The relay in question was under $20, now it's $45. Bastards!

The moral of the story: If you need more handholding when wiring everything up, use what I did as the parts in the diagrams will then look like the ones I used and you don't have to try to 'translate' how to wire things up. If you know how to deviate from the parts listed and still provide the same functionality, by all means go for it. If you're *really* lost, wait for the control panel to be sold fully assembled and ready to go (hopefully not long now!) :)

Happy building! Err, brewing!

Kal
Click to expand...

Interesting, I was still able to buy those AC/DC units cheap a couple months ago. I also ordered single pole relays as I built a 120 volt RIMS (1500W element) version of your control panel and didn't need the double pole relays. When the package arrived they shipped both.
 
SAMPLER said:
PS... Is there way to print out the full documentation of your control panel build that you have written up on your website? I am curious as this would be amazing piece of information to have on hand for my future conversion to Electric Brewing.
Click to expand...

jfenton78 said:
Kal, You think it might be possible to get a pdf or easily printable version?
Click to expand...

kal said:
I will likely be offering a complete downloadable/printable PDF version of the entire brewery built instructions (not just the control panel) once the entire writeup is done. This will not be free however. It'll likely cost a few dollars to offset the first point I made above.
Click to expand...


Hi everyone!

A heads up that I do indeed now have a complete PDF version available for download and printing. I hope you have lots of paper however!

The Complete Guide to Building Your Home Brewery is now done. It's over 350 pages of detailed step by step instructions with hundreds of pictures and diagrams. The perfect Valentine's Day gift for that special someone! :)



Link: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/the-complete-guide-to-building-your-brewery

Kal
 
Does it include anything that the website does not? I can't see how it would when the site is so detailed. Thanks for the update.
 
There's a few extra pictures and other small things (and a nice cover :)) but generally no. Nothing major. It's for those that want a backup/offline version that they can call their own, for people who want to print it out, or to just make it easier to read. All the links still work.

Kal
 
FYI, for anybody interested. I was at IKEA to buy the Attest handles for the control panel. I ended up taking the floor model large handles because IKEA was out and they weren't getting any more in. Not sure if it's a production problem or if the Attest-style is going away permanently, but you might want to hit your local IKEA ASAP while they still have those handles in stock. The great news is I got a discount since I took the floor model. :rockin:
 
HoboJoe said:
FYI, for anybody interested. I was at IKEA to buy the Attest handles for the control panel. I ended up taking the floor model large handles because IKEA was out and they weren't getting any more in. Not sure if it's a production problem or if the Attest-style is going away permanently, but you might want to hit your local IKEA ASAP while they still have those handles in stock. The great news is I got a discount since I took the floor model. :rockin:
Click to expand...

That stinks. I bought the ones I needed from the Pittsburgh IKEA the other day. They had plenty in stock but who knows in the next coming weeks. Thanks for the heads up.
 
I spent days and countless hours online looking at all of the fantastic pages that guide one through the project. I decided to adapt their build to my much simpler needs and budget. A few pics below. System works as advertised with 1/2*F mash temp control. Utterly fantastic.

NOW they've come out with a downloadable book. I RECOMMEND anyone interested to get it. It will save you hours and hours of time. They have certainly earned whatever they gain from their venture. Major kudos!

pid2.jpg


pid1.jpg


P.S. Mine was set-up for 110 instead of 220.
 
Is anyone else having trouble mounting the conduit box for the heating element on the side of a keggle? It seems like there is too much space and no thread inside the keggle to slip on the lock nut. I'm guessing I'll have to sand down the heating element base a little to get enough thread through the keg wall.
 
Maltose said:
Is anyone else having trouble mounting the conduit box for the heating element on the side of a keggle? It seems like there is too much space and no thread inside the keggle to slip on the lock nut. I'm guessing I'll have to sand down the heating element base a little to get enough thread through the keg wall.
Click to expand...

Here's how I did it. I welded the nut to the side of the kettle and made 2 brackets to hold the box on. Hope you can see this picture:

000_0080.jpg


Drilled a couple holes in the brackets to mount the box and also give me a ground. Tried to use some gaskets to seal to the kettle (just in case) but I ended up using silicon. The box is water tight the silicon just gives me some more piece of mind in case of boil overs. Here is the box attached:

000_0078.jpg


Hope this helps.
 
Hmm...I'm actually getting ready to mount my elements to the keggles. May need to rethink it a little if the keg wall is too thick. I'm guessing you TIG'd the nut on there? I can MIG, but don't have access to a TIG at home.

thanks for the those pics kernal74
Thanks to Kal for an awesome site and inspiration.:mug:
 
blksabbath said:
Hmm...I'm actually getting ready to mount my elements to the keggles. May need to rethink it a little if the keg wall is too thick. I'm guessing you TIG'd the nut on there? I can MIG, but don't have access to a TIG at home.

thanks for the those pics kernal74
Thanks to Kal for an awesome site and inspiration.:mug:
Click to expand...

I didn't have a TIG I used a MIG welder with stainless wire. Cleaned it up real well. Really the only rusting I have is from the element. But that is not a huge issue if I keep it clean and dry when not in use.
 
update: I actually got the element in the keggle wall and secured it with a lock nut. It took a decent amount of pressure, and I had to file down the hole a little bit from the punch, but she's in there.
 
Either way, I'll get it attached. I've done a ton of other weldless fittings on my kettles and never had any issues. guess we'll see. Thanks guys!
 
Kal, I just purchased the E-Book, mainly because I was tired of having to flip through all the pages to learn how to build a control panel but also as a way to say thanks for all the info. Piece by piece I am going to manufacture a clone within he next couple of months.
 
Hello,

I am in the process of building a control panel just for a RIMS tube from brewers hardware. I will just have 1 PID, 1 timer, 2 pumps, 1 120v heating element, etc.. My system will have the alarms, buzzer, main power as well.. I am just curious if I can take the content of the book I downloaded and use it for reference. Anyone in this thread build a similar control box to kals using only 120v?
 
You can certainly use it as a reference as to how to wire and use parts correctly. My guide doesn't just tell you what to do but explains the circuit principles so you should (hopefully!) learn a lot that you can apply to your own setup.

There are considerable people taking my information and adapting it for their own use.

The emails I get the most are from people that say my info's been a big help at "connecting the dots" (where everyone's got slightly different 'dots').

Kal
 
pola0502ds said:
Hello,

I am in the process of building a control panel just for a RIMS tube from brewers hardware. I will just have 1 PID, 1 timer, 2 pumps, 1 120v heating element, etc.. My system will have the alarms, buzzer, main power as well.. I am just curious if I can take the content of the book I downloaded and use it for reference. Anyone in this thread build a similar control box to kals using only 120v?
Click to expand...

I built exactly what you are describing. I am still finishing the venting and heating element assembly, so I have not tested it yet, but it appears to be working great. See posts 133 and 151 and feel free to PM me. I can take a picture of the inside of the box if it helps. The parts aren't that different. You'll only need single pole mechanical relays and can get away with lesser guage wire for some connections.
 
pola0502ds said:
People who run a 120v RIMS tube, what type of element? I have been trying to find a 120v stainless steel that is LWD and i couldn't find anything but I just came across this one. Its 2000w, is that to much?

http://bostonheatingsupply.com/rheemsp10868gl120v2000wss.aspx
Click to expand...

I'd like to see others reply, but assuming you run a 20 amp circuit like I did you might get away with it. When heating you should only be running one pump, which draws 1.4 amps. The element will draw 17 to 18 amps, depending on voltage. The electronic gizmos don't draw much amperage.

I used an Extra Low Density Straight Style - Screw-In - 120V - 1500 Watts - (#120-1500-ELD) from http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html
 

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