HDPE solera

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blizzard

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I can get a 15 gallon, food-grade HDPE barrel for a few dollars. I’ve been thinking of doing a solera, but don’t want to deal with the expense and maintenance of a barrel. Plus, 15 gallons is exactly the size I had in mind.

I know there are plenty of people that will say HDPE will let in too much O2, but I’d like some insight from the collective experience and to perhaps get some ideas. So I guess I’m looking for opinions on
1. Has anyone ever done this with HDPE, and
2. Is there a way to reduce O2 permeability of the HDPE to make this barrel suitable.

Thanks all.
 
For what you want to do an inductor tank is a much better choice... the thickness will be sufficient to prevent too much O2 from entering. If you age for years in a thin plastic HDPE barrel you will end up with vinegar as acetobacter chew up all of the alcohol. Another advantage in an inductor tank, is you can periodically dump the trub from the bottom dump valve, so you won't have to rack off the sediment.

http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?item=2800
 
The O2 permeability is also a function of wall thickness. Do you have any idea of the wall thickness of your barrel.
Your other option is to cover the outside of the barrel with something that is less permeable. I don't have any ideas off the top of my head, but I'll let you know what I can come up with.
 
I haven't seen the barrel, but I imagine it is pretty thin. It's a blue rain barrel-type of container used to store food products like malt extract and other syrups.
 
I have used the opaque white version of THIS to ferment a sour golden ale - after 14 months in the barrel there were no acetic notes. not sure about the exact wall thickness, but these are pretty substantial. I would occasionally purge the headspace with CO2 after sampling.
 
I have found no issues/differences in sour beer brewed in sealed HDPE containers compared to glass. It may be more O2 permeable, but it doesn't seem to be high enough to make a noticeable difference to the beer.
 
thanks calder i figured as much i always figured the main problem being the lids on buckets i am doing long primaries and will rack onto fruit at about the year point from there on they will be in glass
 
I have a solera in a 6 gallon better bottle. I'm halfway through year two with no signs of substantial acetic acid in either the BB or individual bottles. I don't break the pellicle except to rack once a year so that may play a role in keeping out the acetobacter.
 
One thing I would be worried about with using a 6g bottle is the size of the trub. How to do you find the trub to be with your better bottle? is it growing to a large size that you will be loosing a gallon of your beer? (In a six gallon bottle thats a big percentage loss) Do you ferment in a different fermenter, then transfer it to the solera bottle for secondary? that would probably be a good way of minimizing the amount of trub forming, but i'd be worried about different yeast competing for flavour.

After the trub has grown too much, do you think it would be possible to transfer the beer off the trub to a new fermenter? or would that loose a lot of the characteristics of the solera.

I'm really interested in this, and plan to set up a solera after i stop hopping around from apartment to apartment.
 
trub should be no issue when you are done racking if to much trub is an issue just siphon from the very bottom until you achieve the amount you desire
 
One thing I would be worried about with using a 6g bottle is the size of the trub. How to do you find the trub to be with your better bottle? is it growing to a large size that you will be loosing a gallon of your beer? (In a six gallon bottle thats a big percentage loss) Do you ferment in a different fermenter, then transfer it to the solera bottle for secondary? that would probably be a good way of minimizing the amount of trub forming, but i'd be worried about different yeast competing for flavour.

After the trub has grown too much, do you think it would be possible to transfer the beer off the trub to a new fermenter? or would that loose a lot of the characteristics of the solera.

I'm really interested in this, and plan to set up a solera after i stop hopping around from apartment to apartment.

Trub is an obvious concern for the reason you point out. An additional concern is eventual autolysis over years of dead yeast just sitting there.

I ferment everything in the same bottle. I don't use a separate fermenter for primary. The first year I tossed in six gallons and after a year I siphoned out four gallons and added four new gallons. There's definitely a lot of trub by now. It's about five inches thick.

After the second year ends I'm going to siphon out all of the beer and dump the trub. Then I'll siphon a couple gallons back in and add four fresh gallons of wort. The four gallons left will get split between a gallon set aside for gueuze blending next year, a gallon on fruit and two gallons bottled straight. Next year I will have four gallons of one year old lambic, one gallon of two year old and one gallon of three year old. Then it will all get blended into six gallons of gueuze.

The two gallons of old lambic will have enough souring bugs to grow new populations to continue fermentation. I might try to siphon up a little of the very top of the trub just to make sure I get a little extra of the youngest bugs. That's the same thing breweries do to "infect" their barrels. They just add fermented lambic to the barrel and then add fresh wort.
 
I was worried about autolysis as well, but forgot to include it earlier.

Do you think that there would be enough viable yeast floating around in the beer after two years that you don't need the trub? The reason i'm wondering this is because on your website you mention that the carbonation of your bottled beer wasn't as high as you had intended, I was wondering if that could be because the yeast by then would be old or the pH would be too acidic for the yeast, thus killing it, even with the addition of the bottling sugar. If that is the case, it makes me wonder if a quicker turn over time might be better for this size of a system (say, every four or six months. But, exchanging smaller batches, 1-2g instead of 4g).

In the case of bottling, i'm sure adding champagne yeast would hopefully help with the carbonation.
 
I was worried about autolysis as well, but forgot to include it earlier.

Do you think that there would be enough viable yeast floating around in the beer after two years that you don't need the trub? The reason i'm wondering this is because on your website you mention that the carbonation of your bottled beer wasn't as high as you had intended, I was wondering if that could be because the yeast by then would be old or the pH would be too acidic for the yeast, thus killing it, even with the addition of the bottling sugar. If that is the case, it makes me wonder if a quicker turn over time might be better for this size of a system (say, every four or six months. But, exchanging smaller batches, 1-2g instead of 4g).

In the case of bottling, i'm sure adding champagne yeast would hopefully help with the carbonation.

I think there would be enough viable brett and pedio in the beer but I suspect the act of siphoning out the beer -- and I would go straight to the trub -- would agitate enough extra cells to make sure I have enough.

A couple months ago I brewed a one gallon batch of brown ale and after fermenting it out with sacc I racked to secondary and added the dregs of one of the 750ml bottles of lambic. There's pellicle and definitely some additional fermentation going on. So I'm not worried about viability without all that trub.

I think with bottling you need to add some extra yeast because brett is lazy about producing CO2, it's not in a hurry to ferment and when you add simple sugars, the pedio wants to get at it first. When letting a beer sit for a year to ferment there's less of a concern about how fast it occurs, just that it does. The bottles have started to get a little more carbonated but not as much as I hoped. I added enough sugar to get to 5 volumes of carbonation but probably ended up with about half that.

This actually reminded me that I meant to bottle the gallon sitting on raspberries today but I forgot to go to the LHBS for wine yeast earlier in the week. Oops.
 
For a personal solera, I would prefer a larger amount than 6 gallons (especially since i've been brewing in imperial gallons, 5g = 23L, instead of US 5g = 19L), preferably, 10-15g is what i'm aiming for. I was looking around for carboys of that size, and all I could find were vintage glass ones ($300+) and Nalgene bottles (with a spigot at the bottom).

This morning I found this barrel while browsing reddit. I'm a little bit confused because the URL mentions it is a 6g, and the photo title says 6g. But, the listing is for a 15g barrel. If it actually is a 15g barrel, this would be perfect IMO. Small enough SWMBO won't complain, and large enough to have a steady supply of solera.

Opinions?
 
You could call and confirm. I think it would be ok but if it's a smaller barrel you're looking at more oxygen exposure so maybe a bit more acetic acid than I am getting. Just depends on your flavor preferences.

I know there are some HBS that sell the 15g HDPE containers LME comes in, usually around $30 or less. That might be a good alternative for you.
 
We've kind of brought this thread off-topic, sorry. But, as i mentioned i'm interested in doing a solera.

In regards to the acetic acid due to the larger oxygen exposure from the small barrel, would a more rapid turnover of beer within the fermenter help counteract this? or would the bacteria be constantly growing, and the addition of new sugars just help them along and quicken the formation of vinegar?
 
I'm not really sure whether it would help or hurt. On one hand, leaving the beer in the barrel for a long time provides plenty of alcohol for acetobacter to turn into vinegar but the exposure might be minimal enough that acetic acid production would be very slow between the wood staves and the pellicle. On the other hand, the frequent racking could bring more oxygen into the remaining beer and accelerate acetic acid production but the frequent new fermentations could produce more CO2 to slow down acetic acid production. I'm not really sure which is more likely to occur.
 
Any particular reason you want a horizontal tank? For that price I think you can get a fully draining inductor tank and stand that will be easier to drain, remove trub without draining, and/or clean.
 
I have a 37 gallon inductor tank for primary fermentation of my house lager. Will need to look into the larger ones. If I am going to do a Lambic Solera I want something of substantial volume. I looked into used whiskey barrels and for $190 plus $160 in shipping I'd rather have a Poly tank - no leak worries.

Thanks, blizzard!
 
Another off topic post but how is everyone making these tanks air tight? My uncle sells all kinds of plastic tanks and we can not figure out a way that people are making the lids air tight.
 
Someone please jump in if I am wrong but my understanding of a Lambic Solera is that you do not want it air tight (to simulate a barrel). Tight enough that there is minimal air exchange but not airtight like a "regular" beer.
 
Someone please jump in if I am wrong but my understanding of a Lambic Solera is that you do not want it air tight (to simulate a barrel). Tight enough that there is minimal air exchange but not airtight like a "regular" beer.

Fred, a couple thoughts:

Large wooden barrels (60 gallons+) are a lot less permeable than you'd think (image from Wild Brews below). I would think you'd want a plastic vessel to be as air tight as possible, you'll get the requisite amount of O2 just from opening the bung/lid for sampling & top-off.

Having said that, even if you could get the lid sealed well, most of the MDPE conical build threads suggest transferring after a month. I'd be really wary of using a medium density vessel for long term aging, especially if your goal is a 10 year solera. Sounds like a recipe for vinegar. I know you sourced spirit barrels, but do you have any local vineyards? Many of them will sell off decommissioned wine barrels for about $100.

EDIT: check that, just saw that you bought the agrimart tank (HDPE) instead of the DudaDiesel (MDPE). Though, 10 years still sounds like a long time in a plastic vessel.

148515d1379306271-pellicle-photo-collection-image-521505612.jpg
 
My uncle has been selling a lot of these lately for brewing. I'm thinking about picking up a couple to be his guinea pig. They are HDPE and are ok for potable water storage. I just can't figure out what to do with the lid.
15 gallon inductor
 
Here is a link to some really good Beer Solera reading including detailed results periodically since 2010.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/03/sour-solera-beer-barrel.html

Along the lines of my plans. They had a great deal of concern about autolysis from not draining the barrels - this is fixed by using an HDPE conical and being able to remove the trub once a year. I do intend to leave a few inches of head space which will become CO2 from the primary fermentation taking place in the 60 gallon conical each year. If the sample shows too much sour I will primary it in buckets for 2-3 weeks and then rack in and CO2 blanket with my BeerGun.

I will have to seal the conical's lid. I will use silicone O-rings and will look into a food safe type of caulk (such as aquarium sealant - it cannot leach chemicals or the sensitive saltwater fish would die).
 
Will do. It arrives next Tuesday - it may be a week after that before I get it configured. I haven't decided if I want to craft a liquid out Cornelius keg fitting onto the lid with a liquid dip tube (full length) to pressure rack (at 3psi - light pressure) the new brew in or just put a bulkhead fitting that I can seal onto it and drop a tygon hose in for gravity racking.

BTW the 60 gallon Ace Roto with legs was only $185.00 SHIPPED on www.spraysmarter.com

Sweet deal compared to other sites that wanted $180 PLUS $160 in shipping.
 
Any details beside the build you posted in the conical thread? I'm interested in this. How much will you be pulling off every year?
 
Can you post some photos when you get it sealed up??

Alright it is all sealed up. I will do some basic pressure tests once the sealant has had ample time to cure (moving liquid in and ensuring the air locks bubble away as that is about as much pressure as the lid will ever have to sustain). The FDA sealant says no VOCs... yeah right - it gives you a good buzz...

I went with twin airlocks just to be safe. I'll have to use blow off tubes during the initial 60 gallon ferment but should only need the 2 airlocks each year when 15 gallons are added. The SS 1/2" valve with QD connects to a 20 inch deep 1/2" ss tube that will allow siphoning or addition of liquid (it reaches 25 gallons down into the product). Any more than 25 gallons can be removed from the bottom.







 
Nice! Thanks for the photos. Let us know how the dip tube works. That's a pretty good idea.

It worked amazingly well. I pumped 60 gallons of water into the tank from the OTHER side of the garage (about 15ft of 1/2" silicone tubing coming from a March 815 that was 1ft above ground level). The top of the tank is 8ft above ground and the dip tube is about 2ft down into it. The head pressure that pump was working against from gallon 35 (bottom of the dip tube) up to gallon 60 did slow it down a bit but it kept going at a pace that was impressive! Siphoning off will not at all be a problem (breaking the siphon when I disconnected the QD at the top of the tank was quite loud). I can't wait to get the Lambic Solera's first 60 gallons brewed next weekend!!! My biggest fear is the initial fermentation being too vigorous - I plan on using a half of a bottle of anti foam drops and double blow off tubes.
 
Wow. I think a whole bottle of antifoam might be overkill.

Good luck on brew day! Sounds like a great project. I'm definitely jealous.
 
True - maybe 2 or 3 droppers full to start. I can easily add more if it gets out of control - not sure how vigorous the Wyeast 3763 is. Added a few pics of the yeast trap below:








 
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