Red Star Pasteur Champange dry yeast for BEER

Well i got some packages of red star pasteur champange dry yeast, they said it cant be used for sparkling wine because the yeast it doesnt floculate well.


But i want it to use it for beer high gravity beer but my doubt is that an sparkling wine has CO2 as well the beer has CO2. (i want to brew a clone for black tuesday stout from the bruery and that beer has around 19% alcohol)


Im guessing they dont recomend it for sparking wine because once you open the bottle the bubbles will rise the yeast, for you this make sense?


If this is the reason they dont recomend it could the cold crash techinique will help or diminish the trouble or some gelatin?

Why would champagne yeast not work for sparkling wine, given that champagne is sparkling wine?

yes its quite tricky that description (from the website) here the link: http://valleyvintner.com/Merchant2/DataSheets/Yeast/PASTEURCHAMPAGNE.pdf


:cross:

made a very dry sparkling cider with that yeast. bottle conditioned & it came out VERY dry and Crystal Clear. I did age it in bottle for 9 months 12 months, and last at 18 months yeast was packed by 9 months , and so firmly packed by 12 months I got all but a bit of cider out of bottle (beer capped champagne bottles), almost same at 18mo.

starrfish said:

made a very dry sparkling cider with that yeast. bottle conditioned & it came out VERY dry and Crystal Clear. I did age it in bottle for 9 months 12 months, and last at 18 months yeast was packed by 9 months , and so firmly packed by 12 months I got all but a bit of cider out of bottle (beer capped champagne bottles), almost same at 18mo.

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interesting so basically in your case the yeast was still carbing the cider? thats why the cider came out?

You don't want champagne/wine yeasts as the only yeast in your beer. Those yeasts only eat simple sugars (like the ones found in wines) so they won't eat the longer chain sugars that you typically find in beer.

wyzazz said:

You don't want champagne/wine yeasts as the only yeast in your beer. Those yeasts only eat simple sugars (like the ones found in wines) so they won't eat the longer chain sugars that you typically find in beer.

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still had enough energy to carb the cider with the addition of priming sugar. that being said cider is closer to a wine than beer.

starrfish said:

still had enough energy to carb the cider with the addition of priming sugar. that being said cider is closer to a wine than beer.

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And you added priming sugar, which is a simple sugar. I use dry wine yeast to carb up my barleywines and belgians that sit for months in tertiary.

Although at the top of the pdf they say that it is not commonly used for Sparkling wines, they say HOW to use it for sparkling wines later in the same pdf.

For sparkling wines, the yeast should be acclimatized to alcohol by first growing it in juice of sweetened diluted wine until ½ the sugar has fermented, then adding it to the production vat.

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Revvy said:

Although at the top of the pdf they say that it is not commonly used for Sparkling wines, they say HOW to use it for sparkling wines later in the same pdf.

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Yes so they recomend an starter for sparkling wines but i dont know to much about sparkling wine i dont know what situation affects the performance of the yeast when you use it for sparkling wines maybe there is a difference between normal cider,wine to the sparkling wine.

But i have made liquor with raspberries,blackberries with bread yeast and they came great and i gues the only difference will be that you have to bottle sonner in order to carb the wine and that wine will became a sparkling wine, so maybe the pressure affects the performance of this particular yeast and maybe thats why they said than an starter is mandatory issue, and dont know perhaps.


But if the pressure its the point and dont mind i could use another kind of yeast maybe s04 to carb the beer (well if the champange yeast could eat long chains of sugar from a big big sweet stout) cos i want to clone the Black Tuesdar beer hehe.

wyzazz said:

And you added priming sugar, which is a simple sugar. I use dry wine yeast to carb up my barleywines and belgians that sit for months in tertiary.

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what yeast have you used??

wyzazz said:

You don't want champagne/wine yeasts as the only yeast in your beer. Those yeasts only eat simple sugars (like the ones found in wines) so they won't eat the longer chain sugars that you typically find in beer.

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what about mashing it at 140-144F? to make the wort more fermentable? or any hint to get a beer with a simple fermentation at 16-18% ABV alcohol?

Champagne yeast will only ferment simple sugars, and will probably be lousy for a big malty beer. This is what I have read ... not from experience.

My advice would be to slowly work up to making a really big beer. They are not easy to make, and if you don't know what you are doing, you are likely to end up with a very sweet 10 or 12 % beer.

Try a Barley wine of 10%, then move to 12%, and use a beer yeast that can tolerate those alcohol levels.

You might want to try using WLP099, and harvesting and repitching, so that you get a big cake for a really big beer. Once you pass the 12% level, you will need to feed the yeast over time with additional sugar additions (otherwise you may kill it with the sugar), and need to aerate well at the start and at every incremental feeding.

Get some experience with lower high gravity beers, and do a lot of reading/searches for information on brewing big beers.

letsbrew said:

what yeast have you used??

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I use anything I have on hand, typically a bit of Montrachet or Pasteur Champagne yeast. I'm just looking for carbonation not any type of flavor contributions or a lower gravity.

Calder said:

Champagne yeast will only ferment simple sugars, and will probably be lousy for a big malty beer. This is what I have read ... not from experience.

My advice would be to slowly work up to making a really big beer. They are not easy to make, and if you don't know what you are doing, you are likely to end up with a very sweet 10 or 12 % beer.

Try a Barley wine of 10%, then move to 12%, and use a beer yeast that can tolerate those alcohol levels.

You might want to try using WLP099, and harvesting and repitching, so that you get a big cake for a really big beer. Once you pass the 12% level, you will need to feed the yeast over time with additional sugar additions (otherwise you may kill it with the sugar), and need to aerate well at the start and at every incremental feeding.

Get some experience with lower high gravity beers, and do a lot of reading/searches for information on brewing big beers.

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Nice it seems a hard work i have found a pdf file from the bruery and they give you tips for fermentaations of high gravity beer, very interesting, my only doubth its about contamination because i watched this video where the guy opened a black tuestday and for me it showed signs of overcarbonation maybe bue to some bugs for the aditions of sugar(they dont say if they boil it first) or maybe due to some criters found in the bourbon barrels. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ6G_gHzCNI]San Diego Beer Vlog EP 100: The Bruery Black Tuesday Video Beer Review - YouTube[/ame]

But i was reading some articles about hydrolysis (invert sugar) i came up with the idea, for example maybe the champagne yeast cant eat the disaccharides and trisaccharides only monosaccharides like fructose and glucose. The wort has 54% maltose wich has two molecules of glucose, 14% of trialose which has 3 molecules of glucose and if i can recall well 8% of sucrose which has 1 molecule of glocuse and 1 of fructuose , there are some other monosaccharides and 25% of no fermentables ( i guess this no fermentables are longer than a trisaccharide) but why not use the hydrolysis to invert the sugar present in the wort in order to alllow the champange yeast to eat smaller chains of sugar? in other words break the longer chains of sugar and give food to the champagne yeast.

I know the maltose can be inverted the same way as the sucrose, you need a proportion of sugar with an small amount of water and citric acid. Im thinking that maybe a mixture of dry malt extract plus water plus citric acid at 60C for 20-30m (same times and same temp for invertion of sucrose) might invert the maltose and maybe the trissacharides into disaccharides once you get the inverted sugars (maybe there is a techinique to know or to test the invertion occured well done but at this point my test could only be to see the champagne yeast fermenting it) but once you get the inverted sugar we could rise the Ph to 5-5.3 with sodium bicarbonate as you do with sucrose (this info i found in several articles not for brewing issues but i think that we can make a test).

Then add more water and you will ready to boil your inverted wort. By boiling you dont risk your inverted sugars to make them once again longer chains,you only will get some Maillard reaction where the molecule of sugar will lost a molecule of water and get a molecule of amino acid but the molecule of sugar will remain with its structure the strucuture that we are trying to achieve to make it fermentable it just will turn quite darker. When i brew some liquors or wine i use table sugar and bring it to boil and i use bread yeast with no yeast nutrients and they have made for example a raspberry wine with 13.79% of ABV alcohol, just the fruit to give flavor and a bunch of sugar. And sucrose found in table sugar is a monosacharide.

What do you think ? i guess the only think will be to give a try, i brew small batches so in case this doesnt work i wouldnt lose to much money just some pounds or kilos of dry malt extract and some time.


But if this work we could make high gravity beer with yeast that can tolerate up to 16% or more alcohol.

wyzazz said:

I use anything I have on hand, typically a bit of Montrachet or Pasteur Champagne yeast. I'm just looking for carbonation not any type of flavor contributions or a lower gravity.

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ok and i guess you use dextrose or table sugar to carb your brews dont you?

Usually just table sugar. If I were using DME/LME or something else I'd need to use a brewers yeast.

sucrose is a dissacharide sorry (1 molecule of fructose and another of glucose)

letsbrew said:

sucrose is a dissacharide sorry (1 molecule of fructose and another of glucose)

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You are correct, and nowhere did I state that wine/champagne yeast couldn't break down a disaccharide. I only stated that they could eat simple sugars, a more correct way to state it I suppose is that they usually only eat simpler sugars. They struggle quite a bit to break down maltose and longer chained dextrines/sugars.

wyzazz said:

You are correct, and nowhere did I state that wine/champagne yeast couldn't break down a disaccharide. I only stated that they could eat simple sugars, a more correct way to state it I suppose is that they usually only eat simpler sugars. They struggle quite a bit to break down maltose and longer chained dextrines/sugars.

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yes, this is very interesting, maybe this week i will have some extra time to make/do a test and see what happens

There is a BN Sunday Show that comes to mind with Shea Comfort where he talked about mixing yeasts (wine/beer) in beer to get different flavors. I believe THIS was it, but I may be mistaken. Lots of good info if it's the right podcast.

wyzazz said:

There is a BN Sunday Show that comes to mind with Shea Comfort where he talked about mixing yeasts (wine/beer) in beer to get different flavors. I believe THIS was it, but I may be mistaken. Lots of good info if it's the right podcast.

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I haven't checked the link, but many wine yeasts will kill beer yeasts.

Calder said:

I haven't checked the link, but many wine yeasts will kill beer yeasts.

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Those particular strains are mentioned in this show (if I linked the right one) as well. Really interesting stuff...

sound cool let me check that podcast let see those killers

I have to say up front that I am a complete newbie at home brewing beer....but I tried a recipe for Octoberfest from MR Beer that stalled out and wasn't doing much after a week of primary. I read up on yeasts and decided to try this to increase the ABV...I thought the recipe seemed a little weak...I added Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast and about 1/2 cup of honey and some brown sugar and white cane sugar. Man did it take off. I let it sit in the tank for another two weeks and then put it in bottles for a week...then in the fridge for a week....I call it my hobo brew because I have no way of repeating what I did to make it....but it was awesome. A little sweeter than I preferred, but not bad at all. The alcohol content was very high...don't ask for a number, but a liter left me seriously impaired. The head was very respectable after such a short secondary....over all, I couldn't be happier with my first attempt ever.

Yes I am a dumb-ass newbie, but my goal was to increase the alcohol in a generic recipe...that was definitely achieved....but next batch I will pay more attention to what sugars I add to lessen that sweetness.

Love this forum...Y'all have fun.....

SS