20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

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So apparently the malliard reaction needs nitrogen, and the DAP chemically reacts producing nitrogen for the mallaird reaction. Would it be plausible to inject nitrogen gas into the solution and skip the DAP? Maybe that's what dark candi does, or maybe I just have no idea what's going on chemically, which is highly likely.

Edit: Nevermind, this is far more complex than I thought. I need to learn some chemistry. I only touched in it in school. This may be helpful to some.
http://class.fst.ohio-state.edu/fst605/605p/Maillard.pdf
 
Yea I was just trying to figure all this out. I want to make some tomorrow but I can't get DAP around here, and don't want to pay $7 shipping for something tiny costing a few bucks. The grocery didn't have ammonium carbonate either (leavening).

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I found this bit of info:

�� pH influences the ratio of products formed
�� the rate of color formation can be reduced by decreasing
the pH

Not sure if it's helpful or not, but seemed interesting.

Also, if you don't beat me too it (although feel free, I'm lazy), I'd like to try one recipe, and change the sugar each time but keep everything else the same. I want to see if there is a different in taste between Dextrose/Glucose/Corn Sugar, Cane Sugar, and Beet Sugar (both sucrose). Why the initial chemical makeup is the same between cane and beet sugar, I have read multiple times they react different in cooking. If I do try anything I'll post in your thread.
 
ODaniel, thanks for the link! I'm going to try varying the pH in my sugar solutions to see how it changes the finished product. FYI in my experiments without any pH adjustments, the pH was at or under 4 on all the syrups.
 
If I'm reading ODaniel's link correctly wouldn't something as simple as milk be a reasonable source of the amino acids and nitrogen for a Maillard reaction to occur? I'd probably make my chem teachers from back in high school cry asking that but as far as I can tell it meets the requirements and is completely reasonable to think it might be used to create a syrup. If someone with a better understanding of the chemistry behind this would explain why I'm an idiot I'd appreciate it. ;)
 
Crusty: That's really interesting, and I think I'll try that this weekend. I'll let you know then if it's really dumb or not.
 
Just a little feedback for those who have not tried this recipe. It works so well, I've made about 20lb of candy sugar using this thread and I have been pleased every time. Just try it!
 
So I'm curious; has anyone found any substitute for the yeast nutrient suggested in the original post?
 
So I got bored writing a mid-term paper tonight, poured a Highland Seven Sisters, and decided to experiment. I did a triple stage 290F syrup just to see what would happen and I got one that is darker, more complex, some toffee, darker fruit, and tasting than my first attempt of a double stage 290F. Maybe not surprising...

After the third water addition, it bubbled (it doesn't really foam, but a boil over with DME comes to mind) A LOT more and reached the top of the pot before I took it off the burner. Anyone know why this happened?

Caramelization of sucrose occurs at 320F as I understand it, so I didn't caramelize right?
 
Caramelization of sucrose occurs at 320F as I understand it, so I didn't caramelize right?

Caramelization is one of the pathways that Maillard reactions take, so in the presence of DAP the sugar will caramelize at a much lower temperature, among other reactions.
 
Just got through making sugar #5...wow that took a while!!! But it is perfect. Dark, roasty, rummy, dark fruit, dark chocolate...this is going to be awesome in chemnitz's Vespers Abbey Dubbel :tank:

Thank you to everyone who made contributions, especially SnickASaurusRex and Nateo. I will definitely be doing more experimentation with this, especially fermentability tests and direct comparisons with DarkCandi products.

This is why I love HBT :mug:
 
I am Brewing Sunday. Can someone take a look at my recipe and give any advice? New to this.

Malt
6.6lb Light LME
1 lb Golden DME
Spec Grains
1lb Caramel 40L
8oz. Victory

60 min boil. 2 gal. for 5 gal batch

60min 1.5oz Centannial whole 11.6
60min 2 oz cascade pellet 5.0
30 min 1 oz centennial whole 11.6
15 min centennial whole 11.6
5 min willamette pellet 4.6
dry hop 7 days 1 oz centennial whole 11.6
secondary 14 to 21 days

nottingham yeast

this is an IPA Kit that I just took some of the parts of just the grains and malts, ignored some of them (most of the hops) and added some to make an APA. according to my calc this should come out to 63.2 IBU 6 SRM 5.9% ABV OG - 1.059 FG - 1.015.
My question is will the combination of ingredients and the schedule produce a nice hoppy ale that is still drinkable. What I am going for here is like a 2 hearted ale with a bit more character. Only other ingred. I have that I could play with are some Columbus Hop pellets and some more cascade hop pellets. any advise would be welcome
 
Looks fine for an IPA but this isn't the best thread to be posting that. Post in the recipe/ingredients section and you'll get more feedback.
 
Without claiming to know a thing about the science behind it, I made a few test batches of syrup this past week before brewing a Dubbel. Nothing to report about the beer itself yet since it's still in the fermenter, but for what it's worth here's what I discovered about the syrup.

I started with Syrup #4, the 290F version, and made three batches with different sugars: raw organic cane sugar, refined white cane sugar, and dextrose. Cane sugar was the only one worth talking about, the other two turned out terribly. I then made a fourth batch without DAP, to see how pure caramelized sugar stood up to the rest. It was flat and one-dimensional, not something I'd put in my beer.

The 290F cane sugar batch was incredible. Smelled great when cooking, like caramelized sugar and toast. The final result is a smooth, richly dark syrup that days later remains crystal-free. It tastes incredibly complex. Rich, dark fruits like plum and cherry. A bit toasty (though the lighter stages tasted more so), with hints of chocolate and rum.

But that said, there's a slight hint of burnt bitterness that I'm not as fond of at 290F. I suspect it's just a shade too hot. A very quick change occurs between 285F and 290F, the syrup goes noticeably darker in a hurry and bubbles far more furiously. For me anyway, I think the magic number is 285F, after that point the caramelization seems to take off and butt up against the burnt end of the register.

What's clear to me after all this is that the nitrogen provided by the DAP is absolutely critical to facilitating the maillard reaction and creating such a rich complex syrup. Next time I'll keep the temperature a bit lower, but I had no problems brewing with the 290F syrup as it was, the complexity I was looking for was there in spades.
 
mezzoblue, you put many of my own thoughts when making #5 into succinct and eloquent words. I cannot wait to taste my dubbel!

Here's hoping both of our brews are the best we have ever made :mug:
 
what kind of pot should I use to try and pull this off? I have a stainless steel 8qt pot from IKEA, but it specifically states not to coo it too bast or it wil warp. I only want to make 1/2 batches, so i asume 8 qt is good, just not sure if I need a specific type of pot for more efficient heating and quick cooling.
thanks.
 
Beernewb said:
what kind of pot should I use to try and pull this off? I have a stainless steel 8qt pot from IKEA, but it specifically states not to coo it too bast or it wil warp. I only want to make 1/2 batches, so i asume 8 qt is good, just not sure if I need a specific type of pot for more efficient heating and quick cooling.
thanks.

I only made a half batch myself, and I think the cast iron pot I used (best choice for temperature changes) was only a 1 quart. You want to use a smaller pot that allows a deeper volume in order to get a proper reading from your candy thermometer.
 
I kept reading about spiting and spluttering super heated sugar as folks added the water so a was scared to use a small pot. Used my 3 gallon stainless kettle...what a PITA!!! I ended up having to put a 4-sided cheese grater in the pot to hang my thermometer off of just to get readings :D

Make sure it is big enough to hold your volume but small enough to hang your thermometer off of!!!
 
Actually I'm curious to know if anyone has ever used this stuff in place of pure DAP: http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=15

My understanding is that this stuff is essentially DAP + other stuff so I'm assuming it would work although more would be required. If anyone has any experience with it and can let me know what their experience was like I'd be pleased to hear about it.
 
You can order DAP online from numerous places, which is the route I went. I later discovered my LHBS actually did carry it, labelled as "yeast energizer" and nothing else. So even if you don't see it on shelves, you should ask for it by name.
 
Eh, the issue is that most of the stores around here have phased out pure DAP in favour of the wyeast nutrient I linked to above. The two stores I usually go to for supplies both had staff who were fully aware of what it was, so I trust that they don't have it somewhere just labelled as a yeast energizer or nutrient. Finally got my hands on some today (100g worth, whoohoo) at the only group of stores who still stock the stuff in the city (the other damn side of the city sadly) though, so hooray.

Armed with 100g of DAP, 4kg of sugar, and some Belgian Ardennes yeast (wyeast strain 3522) it's time to brew various delicious beers.
 
I tried sugar #4 @ 290F last night. I finally found DAP at a local brew shop. Ordering online from the US for small items is not worth it in Canada. Anyways.

The sugar came out fine (I think). The taste is good as in its not bitter. The texture reminds me of maple syrup (is that how its supposed to be?). One thing I don't understand though is that the color looks a lot more like the light amber sugar instead of dark amber (looks like an APA). Why is that? Did I pour the water too fast? I clearly hit 290F on the thermometer (candy). I'll try again @ 295 and see how that goes.

I re-read the thread and a lot of you seemed to not bring the solution back to 240F, which is what I did. This morning it was not crystalized. I hope it will stay like this.
 
Keep in mind altitude will affect what temperatures you need to hit to the tune of about 1C/2F per 300m/1000 feet (decreasing the higher you are, increasing the lower you are). Don't know what Snick's altitude was for the adjustment from his temperatures but given that Montreal's highest elevation is only 233m while it's lowest is 6m I'd say it's safe to say you might want to add a few more degrees to your target temperature. Perhaps try again with a target temperature of 300F and see what you get out of it.

There's also the issue of the PH having effect on just how much the sugar is going to darken; I'd imagine differences in water might result in a more acidic solution and thus the mixture not getting as dark. I wouldn't worry about that until you've done more experimenting with temperatures first though.
 
I made this sugar a while ago, and then used it to make a dubbel that came out very well.

When I made it, I cycled between 240 and 290 four or five times. Each time it got darker, until by the last time it was the color of cola. I'm guessing each time you cycle it, you produce more melanoidins. I can't remember whether I added more DAP in the middle or not. The ammonia smell was gone by the last couple of cycles.
 
Has anyone made this just to eat? I did some for a beer (which turned out great) and decided to make more for ice cream and stuff. The first time I did Sugar 4 290* but this time I did Sugar 5 290*. It is good but is a little gritty. Has anyone else had this?
 
Keep in mind altitude will affect what temperatures you need to hit to the tune of about 1C/2F per 300m/1000 feet (decreasing the higher you are, increasing the lower you are). Don't know what Snick's altitude was for the adjustment from his temperatures but given that Montreal's highest elevation is only 233m while it's lowest is 6m I'd say it's safe to say you might want to add a few more degrees to your target temperature. Perhaps try again with a target temperature of 300F and see what you get out of it.

There's also the issue of the PH having effect on just how much the sugar is going to darken; I'd imagine differences in water might result in a more acidic solution and thus the mixture not getting as dark. I wouldn't worry about that until you've done more experimenting with temperatures first though.

Good point. I will try again maybe @ 295F and see how that goes. Id on't want to burn it because its for a dubbel and I don't want it to be too dark.
 
I've been using 2 lbs of the deep amber in my Apfelweins. Leaves a nice residual sweetness while still fermenting down to sub-1.000. Fermentation have been taking off compared to using just corn sugar, must be the added nutrients.
 
worked pretty well, my only issues:

took what seemed forever to get the temp back up to 240 after I added the water to break the boil at 290...

then when i hit 240, i cooler the pot and then poured into a heated mason jar...what was left in the pan was a chewy gooey consistency, perfect, but in the mason jar everything crystalized. i kept stirring to try and cool it quicker, but now it is grainy and has the consistency of apple butter

can i still use it??
 
worked pretty well, my only issues:

took what seemed forever to get the temp back up to 240 after I added the water to break the boil at 290...

then when i hit 240, i cooler the pot and then poured into a heated mason jar...what was left in the pan was a chewy gooey consistency, perfect, but in the mason jar everything crystalized. i kept stirring to try and cool it quicker, but now it is grainy and has the consistency of apple butter

can i still use it??

Just warm it up again to liquefy it. I usually use a little bit of hot wort during my boil to mix with and dissolve the syrup.
 
Just made some of the 290 stuff. Lesson learned - do not sniff the sugar until it is done caramelizing unless you want a nose full of ammonia. Gross.

Interesting. Of the 4 or 5 test batches I made, not once did I smell ammonia. From reading the rest of the thread your experience is more typical, I'm not sure what I'm missing out on... but I'm not complaining!
 
I always get a little ammonia. I told my wife that we would pour it over ice cream and she gave me very skeptical looks. It turns out great every time though.
 
I always get a little ammonia. I told my wife that we would pour it over ice cream and she gave me very skeptical looks. It turns out great every time though.

Ammonia boils at -28F. There is no way any significant quantity of it will remain dissolved in boiling sugar at 290F, so there is nothing to worry about. (Except that it smells nasty. There certainly isn't enough produced to be dangerous.)
 
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